Why is Jeter a "2" (great article on his defense)?

[1crazycanuk]

Thanks for the tip on the lifestyle teepack. Seems to me sports writers and radio guys should be paid a whole lot more eh? I mean...if they're going to be blamed...they must obviously have some impact in the results of games therefore they should be paid as much, if not more, than the players. 8) Sounds like you enjoyed your job though.

[longgandhi]

[quote:af842b8e44="tersignf"]Really it comes down to this: could the Yankees have had a successful run with a 4 at shortstop? I doubt it--his net effect has been positive--I can recall maybe an instance or two over the last 10 years where his field play has hurt his team. Hits are hits and outs are outs--and there's smart play every day, whether it's causing a runner at second to hesitate for a split second causing him not to score on a single, playing a run down, cutting off a throw...etc--anyone ever consider that these non-statistical intangibles should be part of any holy grail analysis? In fact that's why it's a holy grail--it will never be able to be represented by a statistic.[/quote:af842b8e44]

Given that the Yanks have had good fielders at third (Brosius, Ventura, ARod) that allow Jeter to cheat with his positioning up the middle, a super offense, top shelf starting pitchers and an exceptional closer (and usually very good set-up men, too), I'd say 'yeah' it's conceivable they could have had this successful run with a 4 at shortstop. For the last 5 years I've done play-by-play scoring for MLB.com in the AL and from my viewpoint Jeter ain't no 2.

As for defense and statistics, we're not that far away from video input and analysis which should increase the relevance of the statistics.

[1crazycanuk]

Can you really say that though? Some people feel that ARod is a better SS than 3B so if ARod at 3B allows Jeter to cheat more then you would say ARod is what, a hundred times better player than Jeter? I don't think Jeter is that bad.

[tersignf]

Well not sure what transcribing play by play for a website has to do with it, but as someone who watched the yankees either in person or on the tube almost every game, Jeter helps them win--ARod --more often than not-doesn't. Call it what you will with the mythical fielding rating (which by the way is so accurate that Bret Boone goes from a 1 to a 4?) but regardless--his smart play earns him the 2--not the athleticism or flair.

[tersignf]

as far as cheating--what about the lack of 2b range they've had during that entire period? Or we can only cheat on one side? I've not played ss competitively but I have played 2B and 3B and I don't see how you can only consider 3B--range there is especially hard to gauge as well because you play more shallow than SS, and it's much more based on reflex/first step versus 2nd and 3rd step fielding.
But you make a valid point...

Can you tell I'm a Yankee fan the way that author was a non-Yankee fan??? :D

[longgandhi]

[quote:1414892175="tersignf"]Well not sure what transcribing play by play for a website has to do with it, but as someone who watched the yankees either in person or on the tube almost every game, Jeter helps them win--ARod --more often than not-doesn't. Call it what you will with the mythical fielding rating (which by the way is so accurate that Bret Boone goes from a 1 to a 4?) but regardless--his smart play earns him the 2--not the athleticism or flair.[/quote:1414892175]

Well, I didn't transcribe the play by play. I recorded the locations of everything live for their online scoreboard: every pitch location and the location of every play... the data from which the fielding calculations/statistics were derived. And it's not just any website; it was for Major League Baseball. That seems to me as having some relevance to this discussion.

Nevertheless, I'm ok with someone saying Jeter makes up for his lack of a good first step and quickness with his intelligence and savvy. His physical skills would be rated a 4, but the intangibles you cite make him average. He probably gets his "2" because he fields pop-ups well and, like Mark Grudzialanek who also gets rated higher than his natural skills merit, he turns the double play well.

[tersignf]

Fair enough--I wasn't trying to come off as insulting although a re read looks that way.

Even a statistically rich sport like baseball can not be completely explained by stats 100% of the time. One appreciates Jeter by watching him, especially live for things the camera doesn't catch--he's a leader on the field and is almost never out of position for anything.

All of that said--in SOM I think he's overpriced because we don't get the intangibles he brings to the team--while his double plays in real life are not really at critical moments but usually when it's 10-2 (kind of like when ARod hits homeruns), his SOM card just tries to replay a lot of double plays--as it should--which again is not something that's captured by the game yet.

cheers

[1crazycanuk]

I don't think he's "average" though.

[Mean Dean]

Jeter's defensive stats have gotten better since A-Rod arrived -- coincidence or not, I dunno. I would think it would be a coincidence -- I think the stats are more sophisticated than that and it's not that big an effect to begin with -- but I can't say for sure. In any event, Jeter used to have by far the worst fielding stats in the league, but he doesn't anymore. Michael Young has succeeded to that crown, and Angel Berroa and Russ Adams also put up clearly worse stats than him last year. Hell, Jeter even had a better zone rating than Miguel Tejada.

Of course, I myself think that would translate to saying Jeter has gone from a 4 most of his career to a 3 the last two years, while in reality SOM has had him go from, what... 2 to 1 to 2 to 3 to 2, or something.

I live in NYC, and personally feel it [i:97ea5babc5]is[/i:97ea5babc5] obvious just from watching him that virtually the only thing he has going for him on defense is his strong arm, which allows him to make some nice plays charging balls and the famous jump-throw in the hole, but that he has almost no range at all to his left. That's my personal impression from watching him, but different eyes see things different ways, which is part of the reason why we go to the stats to begin with.

[ANDYCOCHRANE]

[quote:858ff5575f="1crazycanuk"][quote:858ff5575f="teepack"]I agree with Valen. I'm a former sportswriter, and I would have to say that that article really was much ado about nothing.[/quote:858ff5575f]

That's awesome. Wish I could get a sports writer job or work in radio...but alas...there are next to no jobs available in either.[/quote:858ff5575f]

Didn't George Costanza say similar in Seinfeld when discussing possible new jobs with Jerry?