MVP - Cy Young

[durantjerry]

[quote:45e0be0ccc]HAL makes many much more important decisions in the course of a game,...gets most of those right. And that took a lot of tweaking, right? [/quote:45e0be0ccc]
It seems to me the in game decisions are more "If-Then" type decisions vs the more subjective type decisions that would be involved in mvp voting. I have a hard time envisioning a successful "If-Then" scenario that could choose a deserving mvp. I called the mvp choices subjective decisions, which are different from important decisions. I think it's the type of reasoning that's needed to accomplish what you want that is difficult. You want HAL to somehow bring in factors that at least border on intangible items, which is probably possible but not worth all the time it would take to accomplish IMO.

[johnmartinsain]

I'm just curious I guess, at how the parameters are set up for the MVP/CY feature.

It was created for a reason, right?

It took time to do it.....

Might as well get it right....Is it the best it can be?.....I don't know.....

I wonder if it's just a formula of BA, RBI's, RS, OBP, etc....

Is defense factored in?....base running abilities,....how many wins the player generated?......double plays turned,....runners thrown out?.....
....consistency?,....clutch hitting?....sac bunts/flies?

same with pitchers.....is it mainly most wins?....does ERA matter less?....
...how about wins over main rivals?

I'm thinking it's just a simple formula that could be made better, especially in relation to a team's success and a player's contribution to it. Of course, in real life, sportswriters will consider 'leadership' ability,..which is no factor here. But I do believe an outstanding team's overall performance will result in enhancing consideration for it's top players.

You can mention Grienke, Hernandez, etc,....but there are also examples of Pete Rose 1973 and Munson 1976,...two off the top of my head.

[voovits]

Interesting idea, but it has 2 major flaws.
First, managers are going to be voting for their own players 95% of the time.
Second, it's highly unlikely that everyone will vote due to inactive managers, or just managers who don't care to vote.
How many of us would really take the time to go over every roster just to vote for a fake MVP or Cy Young winner?

[johnmartinsain]

[quote:61f2d2bd9f="Voovits"]Interesting idea, but it has 2 major flaws.
First, managers are going to be voting for their own players 95% of the time.
Second, it's highly unlikely that everyone will vote due to inactive managers, or just managers who don't care to vote.
How many of us would really take the time to go over every roster just to vote for a fake MVP or Cy Young winner?[/quote:61f2d2bd9f]

Actually,...considering that observation,....I'd have the normal simulator accounting for 50% of the result and whichever managers wish to participate account for the other 50%.

Also, it can be set up to detect players that don't belong. For example, a player must appear on at least 1 or 2 other manager's (5 player) ballots to receive those votes. Another option is you simply cannot vote for any of your own players.

This may all be seen as quite meaningless,....but as I've said,...it's there for a reason. If not, why is it a feature in the first place.

To make it more relevant I'd like to see SOM offer 1/3 of a credit for the owner of the MVP and CY. That would go a long way in keeping interest up for a manager during a losing season.

[AeroDave10]

[quote:c8a22ddf29="johnmartinsain"]I'm trying unsuccessfully to think of a team with the league's best record without a player in the top 5 of MVP or CY voting,...which is the case with my team.

I have a (gold glove + silver slugger selection) hitter batting .356 (50 pts above the league's #2 hiiter)..and a 165 inning reliever with 10 wins/8 saves, leading the league in ERA and WHIP.

Both nowhere to be found in the voting although my team leads it's division by 14 games and has 7 more wins than the league's #2 team..

http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/stratomatic/team/team_other.html?user_id=319078[/quote:c8a22ddf29]

It's very difficult for middle relievers to be Cy Young candidates. They have to be really dominant and rack up a lot of wins and saves. 10 and 8 isn't really that much.

I don't see Mauer being an MVP candidate at all. Batting average is a somewhat weak statistic. Amongst players ON YOUR OWN TEAM, he is only fifth in runs and tied for fifth in RBI. The catching pool is very weak, so it's not that hard for the most expensive catcher to be the GG and SS winner.

[RICHARDMILTER]

Interestingly Strat-O-Matic did tweak the MVP voting with the 2010 season. Any formula would have to come from the game company, not from The Sporting News (I would assume). In the past too many pitchers were winning the CY Young and the MVP. In 2010 they changed the formula so it would be harder for pitchers to win the MVP.

I think it should go to the player with the best stats, not the player with the best stats on the best team, unless that player has the best stats overall. It is NOT a team award. Remember Andre Dawson winning the MVP with the Cubs. He deserved it, even if his team stunk. But that is a separate argument.

I would definitely vote for these awards if that was an option.

I have had several championship teams that did not have a single player in the top five for MVP. It just means you have a more well rounded team.

You should not feel bad about wanting a better system. Part of the fun is tracking stats and winning those awards.

[Risden]

[quote:a01469c503="ehlekev"]I think you got it backwards. I love to have the best team in the league and have none of my guys be on the all star, Cy Young, or MVP list. It shows great balance. Let the individual cyber players have their glory.[/quote:a01469c503]

Well said and I totally agree - I have no capacity for individual achievement if the team doesn't win!!! :D I rarely even check those lists anyway - it's totally meaningless.

That's my goal in every league: a well-balanced team that wins without a prima donna (and his agent).

[johnmartinsain]

see message below.....

[johnmartinsain]

[quote:bcc20bbe79="rmilter"]

I think it should go to the player with the best stats, not the player with the best stats on the best team, unless that player has the best stats overall. It is NOT a team award. Remember Andre Dawson winning the MVP with the Cubs. He deserved it, even if his team stunk. But that is a separate argument.

[/quote:bcc20bbe79]

Just looked it up.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/awards_1987.shtml#NLmvp

[b:bcc20bbe79]Ozzie Smith finished 2nd in the MVP voting to Dawson. [/b:bcc20bbe79]

Ozzie with his .303 ave, 0 homers, and 75 rbi's........anyone think he'd finish in the SOM top 5 with those stats?

Some of the 1987 player's seasons were eye opening.

When Tim Raines scored 123 runs, 50 sb's, .330....Dale Murphy had 44 hrs,...Tony Gwynn hit .370,....Tim Wallach 26 hr, 123 rbi, .298 ave, with great defense (St Louis had only 4 more wins than Montreal).

.....many other examples of stats much better than Ozzie's finishing behind Ozzie.....Ozzie didn't even come close to having the best offensive stats on his own team - see Jack Clark (.286, 35, 106).


So, does defense figure into the SOM MVP voting?...team's finish in standings?....does a DH lose MVP points for not playing defense?....these factors figure in real life which is what SOM aspires to emulate.

I think managers can see a players value to a team in more depth than a computer formula.

[RICHARDMILTER]

johnmartinsain wrote :[quote:018dbc4410]
Ozzie Smith finished 2nd in the MVP voting to Dawson.

Ozzie with his .303 ave, 0 homers, and 75 rbi's........anyone think he'd finish in the SOM top 5 with those stats?

Some of the 1987 player's seasons were eye opening.

When Tim Raines scored 123 runs, 50 sb's, .330....Dale Murphy had 44 hrs,...Tony Gwynn hit .370,....Tim Wallach 26 hr, 123 rbi, .298 ave, with great defense (St Louis had only 4 more wins than Montreal).

.....many other examples of stats much better than Ozzie's finishing behind Ozzie.....Ozzie didn't even come close to having the best offensive stats on his own team - see Jack Clark (.286, 35, 106).


So, does defense figure into the SOM MVP voting?...team's finish in standings?....does a DH lose MVP points for not playing defense?....these factors figure in real life which is what SOM aspires to emulate.

I think managers can see a players value to a team in more depth than a [/quote:018dbc4410]

Those are some good points. I think it would be fun to vote, even if not everyone participated. How about a Best Manager Award, the CD-ROM has that award. Except I guess everyone would either vote for themselves or the best team. I guess winning the title is a Best Manager Award enough.

A player's defense is an interesting point to bring up. I think the CD ROM and the same program TSN SOM uses may take defense into account, but to a very very small degree.

One last thing, what about an actual All Star Game at the end of the season? It is easy to do with the CD ROM, but may be tough for TSN to program into the season.

My favorite personal achievement for one of my players is probably a batting title, even if it is not the most important thing.