Negro League Players: Stated Out, Strated Out, Historied Out

[paige91]

[quote:955660c115]No one will ever know how well some players actually were in comparison because of a lack of similar competition. Was Sadaharu Oh a better power hitter than Hank Aaron or Babe Ruth? We will never know. This debate could go on forever and people will have differing opinions. [/quote:955660c115]

But at least we have have fun pretending to find out the answer to that "what if?" question. That's the illusion we get from this game. All I know is some of the Negro League hitter cards we have are awesome. But the pitcher cards aren't as good, and you hardly ever see guys like Paige, Williams and Redding at the top of the leaderboards like you do for Gibson, Charleston, Stearnes, Wilson, Beckwith, Wells and Suttles. We never hear Slim Jones mentioned among the best Negro League pitchers, yet he has the most expensive card (per start). Why is that?

So it's a valid criticism to say that Smokey Joe and Satchel are misrepresented in this game if their results in the sim don't match the legendary stories we have about them - because it destroys the illusion of realism that attracts us to this pasttime.

[andycummings65]

So is this really about injuries for the NeLers? If that's the case, do the same with the 1994 players and some of the guys who played in the early days when 162 games were not the norm.

Best statement in the thread is below.
rburgh said:
[quote:e2f079d8bd]Probably the most correct statement is that the Negro leagues had star power comparable to the major leagues, but lacked an equivalent depth of talent. This would, in turn, have caused the statistics of the great Negro league players to become somewhat inflated compared to those of the white players of the era.[/quote:e2f079d8bd]

[gkhd11a]

[quote:974a27b35a="MtheB"]
It is truly a shame (the on-going saga of the negro league players) that in STRAT, most of them are saddled with the 15 game injury bug,--which has nothing to do with reality, as--
most of those players played hundreds of games including league games, all star games, barnstorming games --etc. so any issue of longevity and durability should be completely the other way around--i.e. the way STRAT has done it, its upside down and backwards.
This is something that needs to be changed.[/quote:974a27b35a]

If one doesn't use a player because of a 15 game injury risk then that is just showing a lack of understanding of how the online stratomatic game actually works, and the true impact of injuries relative to the ability to create winning teams in Strat. And I don't see where changing the injury rating makes a player a better choice to use unless one is looking to trick people into using a player for an inconsequential reason.

[LMBombers]

[quote:54538d24fd="MtheB"]--several people have responded that there is no way to compare.
But there is.

Lets look at the Smokey Joe Williams example.
He faced the 1917 World Series Champions the New York Giants. He struck out 20. He no-hit them.
[/quote:54538d24fd]

I don't know if the 1917 Giants played all their best players or not, maybe they did. However it was an exibition game for them. It could be a somewhat similar scenario to game 162 between the Rays and the Yankees the other night. You could read into that game that "Wow, the Rays had a huge comeback and beat the mighty AL East champions to get into the playoffs".

However it was an exhibition game for the Yankees who were resting a few starting hitters and didn't pitch anyone of consequence. What I'm saying is that you can't take everything at face value.

[Mr Baseball World]

Minor point but the Giants lost the 1917 World Series.

[The Last Druid]

The other thing besides injuries that could stand fixing is giving EVERY Negro League hitter a negative clutch rating. [size=24:e0f2e23a5e]WTF??[/size:e0f2e23a5e] That's either just racist or incredibly stupid or both. I really struggle with the "logic " behind that decision. Is it similar to the "logic" that prevented blacks from being NFL quarterbacks, "yeah they're good athletes but just don't have the brains to be a quarterback." I guess the baseball analog might be something like "they're too dumb to recognize a clutch situation." I mean really, if it's not that sort of idiotic thought process than perhaps someone can explain a viable rationale for the clutch issue.

If the data aren't there, give them no clutch rating.

[artie4121]

[quote:14c0c191a3]The other thing besides injuries that could stand fixing is giving EVERY Negro League hitter a negative clutch rating. WTF?? That's either just racist or incredibly stupid or both. I really struggle with the "logic " behind that decision. Is it similar to the "logic" that prevented blacks from being NFL quarterbacks, "yeah they're good athletes but just don't have the brains to be a quarterback." I guess the baseball analog might be something like "they're too dumb to recognize a clutch situation." I mean really, if it's not that sort of idiotic thought process than perhaps someone can explain a viable rationale for the clutch issue.

If the data aren't there, give them no clutch rating. [/quote:14c0c191a3]

As I thought I understood, the clutch rating is not related to a player's actual "clutch" ability but is just some kind of statistical leveling for team vs. team play. I'm not sure I understand, but I don't think there is any more racism in this decision than in giving virtually ALL of the NeL pitchers a [i:14c0c191a3]high[/i:14c0c191a3] DP rating.

Please correct me if I'm wrong.

[The Last Druid]

Maybe not but the leveling is to more closely replicate individual player rbi's. Still can't see how everyone would have negative clutch.