yep....I'd dump Maris' year although I still don't think that is a top 10 (or even top 50) card.......and I'd give Duffy a great year, just not that one. I'm just saying that Duffy card immediately makes him a top 10 card in the set and I don't think anyone would say Duffy is a top 10 guy all-time. Use one of his other great years.....imagine if we put that Phillies team in the set (8 guys over .350 and 4 over .400)....ouch
the Pedro comment speaks to my point. If Pedro had all those great cards, then by all means he was great and should have great cards. I don't think Duffy deserves to be one of the top 10 cards in the set.
ATG new card teasers (new for Wed. 9/14)
by PotKettleBlack » Tue Sep 13, 2011 12:35 pm
I find the argument that a great season from a good player should be discarded because it makes them superior to someone who was consistently an all star to be meh, at best.
Hack Wilson 1930. Maris 61. Fidrych's rookie season. Those are stories for the ages. All time. Great. For those years. Great things, on the all time scale.
An argument that essentially rules out Hack Wilson 1930 as All Time Great is specious. And the argument against the Huge Duffy card... same thing.
Hack Wilson 1930. Maris 61. Fidrych's rookie season. Those are stories for the ages. All time. Great. For those years. Great things, on the all time scale.
An argument that essentially rules out Hack Wilson 1930 as All Time Great is specious. And the argument against the Huge Duffy card... same thing.
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by rburgh » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:14 pm
Paul, your comment about Pedro totally destroys your own point. Was Pedro one of the 10 greatest pitchers of all time? He's borderline at best, because of his short career. Koufax was regarded with at least as much awe in the 60's, and Joss had a brilliant but short career as well. In terms of career wins, he's not on the radar.
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by supertyphoon » Tue Sep 13, 2011 1:36 pm
In the SOM universe Pedro is a top 5 pitcher, because we measure relative value by individual seasons, not by career totals. Martinez and Koufax are racehorses. Guys like Warren Spahn and Phil Niekro are plowhorses.
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by Paul_Long71 » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:15 pm
nobody's gonna change anybody's mind here, so I'll concede the point. I just really hope we don't end up with a ton of 1890s guys that "take over" Strat. Again, you could field a team of 8 guys with crazy good cards from JUST the 1894 Phillies......It seems like we're for sure getting 2 with the possibility of Thompson making 3.
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by doug_tucker10 » Tue Sep 13, 2011 2:58 pm
Just a side note that i find interesting anyway..When Hugh Duffy retired in 1906 he was 6th on the all time MLB list for run production in a career (going back to the beginning of MLB at 1871)
As of today he is still 43rd on the all time list (not far behind Robin Yount) which isn't bad considering this is 105 years after Duffy retired.
As of today he is still 43rd on the all time list (not far behind Robin Yount) which isn't bad considering this is 105 years after Duffy retired.
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by Palanion » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:56 pm
[quote:38fda5c2f0="Valen"]15 cards so far as teasers. Looks like my hopes of getting 118 steal Brock are rather slim. Would have been much preferred over another Hernandez who likely won't get used.[/quote:38fda5c2f0]
Keith Hernandez will use the new Keith Hernandez card. I'm sure he did some "C'mon, put another one of me in there."
:wink: :P
Keith Hernandez will use the new Keith Hernandez card. I'm sure he did some "C'mon, put another one of me in there."
:wink: :P
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by dukie98 » Tue Sep 13, 2011 3:59 pm
My issue with the Duffy card isn't that it was markedly better than his next best season (the Maris/ Hack Wilson argument), but that it doesn't seem to fully account for a grossly inflated offensive context.
Here's the 1894 Boston team: http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BSN/1894.shtml . The team scored 1220 runs in just 132 games-- over 9 runs a game. The Boston team hit .331, with an OBP over .400 -- and these amounts were just 3rd in the league. Duffy's year, put in context, was hardly one for the ages-- he ranked 3rd in the league in OPS+, with a very good but hardly historic 172 (i.e. 72% better than league average). According to baseball-reference.com, this figure is tied for 292nd place all time.
As for other ATG cards for players with a 172 OPS.... there's the 1980 Reggie Jackson card (5.38 M), the 1995 Piazza (7.40 M), and 1920 Speaker (10.20 M, with better defense than Duffy).
In sum, Duffy's card shouldn't be on a par with the top Cobb/ Speaker years, but instead, should probably be in the 8-9 million range.
Here's the 1894 Boston team: http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BSN/1894.shtml . The team scored 1220 runs in just 132 games-- over 9 runs a game. The Boston team hit .331, with an OBP over .400 -- and these amounts were just 3rd in the league. Duffy's year, put in context, was hardly one for the ages-- he ranked 3rd in the league in OPS+, with a very good but hardly historic 172 (i.e. 72% better than league average). According to baseball-reference.com, this figure is tied for 292nd place all time.
As for other ATG cards for players with a 172 OPS.... there's the 1980 Reggie Jackson card (5.38 M), the 1995 Piazza (7.40 M), and 1920 Speaker (10.20 M, with better defense than Duffy).
In sum, Duffy's card shouldn't be on a par with the top Cobb/ Speaker years, but instead, should probably be in the 8-9 million range.
Last edited by dukie98 on Tue Sep 13, 2011 4:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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