Steroid players - anyone else share this sentiment?

[supertyphoon]

I'm not his publicist or agent, but forgive me for interjecting Joe Poz into the discussion once more:

http://joeposnanski.si.com/2012/01/03/the-future-and-past-of-the-hall-of-fame/?sct=mlb_wr_a1

An awful lot of what he says about "unintended consequences" is so very true, especially in the historical backdrop of what's happened with Hall of Fame selection decisions in the past. My favorite (rather long) excerpt:

[quote:6fdcf94846]Costas’ problem with steroids in baseball is not moral; no, it’s a baseball problem. He thinks that the use of steroids made those players unnaturally strong and made their BASEBALL FEATS inauthentic. I asked him if thinks Mark McGwire would have been a Hall of Fame player without steroids — and he says that, yes, if McGwire could have stayed healthy, he would have had a chance to have a Harmon Killebrew type of career. But Costas doesn’t know if he could have stayed healthy, and doesn’t think he would have had ANY shot to hit 70 homers, followed by 65. To him, that’s just inauthentic.

He thinks Barry Bonds was certainly a Hall of Fame player before using steroids — assuming he was clean before 1999 or 2000 — but the seasons he put up after that are synthetic and unworthy of praise or acceptance.

I may not agree with everything Bob says on the subject, but I think he has a sensible approach here — he looks at the FEAT as being inauthentic rather than the PLAYER being evil and unworthy. If we look at it that way, it’s back in the realm of sports, where sportswriters should probably try to stay. Some people have drawn the line here: If they believe that steroids made the difference between a player being a Hall of Famer and not being one, they do not vote for him. And if they believe that the player would have been a Hall of Famer anyway, they would vote for him.

That, at least, seems reasonable to me. Judgment call? Sure. But isn’t all of it a judgment call?

Many, though, have determined that if a player used steroids, and we know it, they are unworthy of the Hall of Fame. Again, I’m not here to argue the point. But I will say: Looking at history, I would bet that a blanket refusal to vote for anyone suspected of using steroids on moral grounds probably won’t get the expected result. There seems a reasonable PERFORMANCE argument to be made on the difference between steroids and greenies, but the MORAL argument doesn’t feel all that different. And when you start breaking down the ethical differences between one kind of cheating and another, you might not be on particularly stable ground.[/quote:6fdcf94846]

[Valen]

I have no more problem using a steroid aided season like Mac or Bonds and the card resulting from those inflated numbers. To me that is no worse than arbitrarily giving Arky a 40 HR like card because you think he might have hit more in a different park. Or some other guy who is given more power than appropriate for the numbers actually put up because strat is "adjusting for era".

The numbers are the numbers, just duplicate them. From there they are not players using whatever they are just cards. Refusing to use a strat card due to some factor in the player's personal life is just handicapping yourself.

[ADRIANGABRIEL]

[quote:95872f4fc2="Ralph Waldo Emerson"]A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.[/quote:95872f4fc2]

[The Last Druid]

I share the sediment.

[junkfood johnny]

shouldnt the league be named the no mac and no cheese league?

[The Last Druid]

BTW PKB. Can't imagine in my wildest dreams that scorehouse attended college. Unless he is still a freshman.

BB players really came late to the steroid party, in part I suspect because of the myth that having big muscles would actually hamper the expression of one's natural abilities. And when baseball players did lift weights it was only during the off season. The muscle bound myth was prevalent right into the '80s when steroid use really became widespread among amateur gym rats. I used to work out in the early 80's at Mr. America's gym in Farmingdale NY. It was owned by Steve Michalik, who after his liver shut down from too much Winstrol V, Dianabol and Deca Duroblin, became a well-known spokesman against steroid use. I'd say the majority of people that I saw work out there were juiced. I remember seeing this one guy with 22 in biceps (tiny undeveloped calves of course) curling something like 225. His tendon connecting the bicep to the humerus snapped and his bicep rolled up his arm like a window shade. Made quite the lasting impression That was also where Joyce Vedral got her start, although I don't think she was using at the time.

[bontomn]

Eight Men Out was indeed a great book, not to mention a great movie.

[Valen]

[quote:dc263853a3]His tendon connecting the bicep to the humerus snapped and his bicep rolled up his arm like a window shade[/quote:dc263853a3]

Wow, that would make an impression. Think a commercial showing something like that instead of the silly statue falling apart would be effective?

[PotKettleBlack]

[quote:500cac0be8="Valen"][quote:500cac0be8]His tendon connecting the bicep to the humerus snapped and his bicep rolled up his arm like a window shade[/quote:500cac0be8]

Wow, that would make an impression. Think a commercial showing something like that instead of the silly statue falling apart would be effective?[/quote:500cac0be8]

I saw something on TLC about a man whose bicep literally exploded. Same kind of thing. Connective tissue failure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj3De6s3ZjQ

That's why roid guys tend to have durability issues after a 3-5 year peak.
You didn't notice because McGwire always had trouble staying in the game, was never anything but statuary with his feet, and you always felt he could make a run at 61 if he could just play 150+ games in a fair to favorable ballpark. At least I did. And really, you see he was healthy for a 3 year stretch, then his legs started to go away, and he couldn't drive the ball anymore. 3-5 year peak, then can't stay in the game or do the same things.

That's why I have trouble believing Clemens was on the juice from the get go, given his total innings pitched. What seems at least as plausible is that pitching in Boston got stale, or the coaching in Boston wore thin (I can see doing anything in Boston being grating, but then I'm a New Yorker at heart), so Boston gave up on him, New environment with the Jays led to a rebirth. Then he hits mid-late 30's and starts juicing because he can't do what he used to do.

The way folks assume roids with Bagwell really highlights the absurdity of the environment. Kind of like how people assume Albert Pujols is either older than his papers say or on HGH or something else baseball is failing to detect. When you put Bags in his context and accept that he was built like a hockey player, which he was, even in the minor leagues, you can accept that he hit 454 home runs without any helper beyond the ubiquitous greenies.

[andycummings65]

nope