Visick,
Man, congrats on being an atheist.
But as for the topic at hand, you seem sour. That's fine; you seem to enjoy it.
Jeter is a winner. Results oriented. When he fails, he persists and drives on. He has perennial hope and optimism. He tries to impart that to others via the philanthropic pursuits he has engaged in.
That's why even in HS he earned Kalamazoo Area B'nai B'rith Award for Scholar Athlete, the 1992 High School Player of the Year Award from the American Baseball Coaches Association, the 1992 Gatorade High School Player of the Year award, and USA Today's High School Player of the Year. Yes--he set a record for errors in the minors one year. And came back out determined to improve. Winners do that when everyone else quits.
It's a habit for him.
Hence why I laugh at the Jeter Haters who throw stones when he hits .200 against righties for 10 games.
Can't have it both ways--saying it's only 1 WS in 10 years...yet he's part of a winning franchise in the most competitive division in baseball...etc. Both sides of the hole in front of the face.
WWJD...well, maybe he could go to rehab like Josh Hamilton...or cry like McGuire...or be a prick like Bonds or Clemens...or infamously soil integrity like Pete Rose or Joe Jackson...or maybe just dump Minka. That seems to be his biggest faux pas.
:P
Jeter Haters
by macnole » Thu Apr 19, 2012 12:22 pm
But through it all--including his challenges, he has LED. His Team. New superstars ask permission to say a word. Alex before Jeter was top dog--then immediately relegated to teammate.
Seattle had a better team than NY in 94/95. They didn't ultimately succeed. All that offense and stats...no avail.
Ask his peers--they have the best view.
Seattle had a better team than NY in 94/95. They didn't ultimately succeed. All that offense and stats...no avail.
Ask his peers--they have the best view.
- macnole
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by andycummings65 » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:20 pm
[b:4385c75c25]Career WAR (Wins Above Replacement) for Shortstops[/b:4385c75c25]
Top 10 Shortstop Ranks
6. Honus Wagner 134.5
18. Alex Rodriguez 104.6
26. Cal Ripken 89.9
40. Robin Yount 76.9
42. Bill Dahlen 75.9
44. Arky Vaughan 75.6
[b:4385c75c25]54. Derek Jeter 70.4[/b:4385c75c25]
59. Luke Appling 69.3
61. Barry Larkin 68.4
71. Alan Trammell 66.9
I know Rivs is not interested in stats :wink: and macnole is busy moonlighting as Jeter's agent so he can be retroactively eligible for more high school awards, but what this says to me is that Derek Jeter is one of the best SS of all time. Right up there with Arky Vaughan and Luke Appling.....and Robin Yount...and a long way from Ripken.....and nowhere close to Wagner
The following statements are all true:
1-Derek Jeter has had a HOF career
2-Derek Jeter has been a fine leader for the Yankees over his career
3-The Yankees have made the playoffs every season except one since 1995
4-As the playoffs are currently constructed, winning a World Series is a crapshoot
5-Therefore, making the playoffs is the only true goal in constructing a team
6-The Yankees payroll has contributed [b:4385c75c25]much more[/b:4385c75c25] to their playoff run than any player who has appeared on their roster in the last 17 years. The ability to spend money to cover injuries, roster holes, and scouting & free agent mistakes is a huge advantage and cannot be overlooked.
Place Jeter on Robin Yount's Brewers for a 20 year career and Yount on Jeter's Yankees for a 20 year career. There wouldnt be much change in the way things have worked out historically.
Top 10 Shortstop Ranks
6. Honus Wagner 134.5
18. Alex Rodriguez 104.6
26. Cal Ripken 89.9
40. Robin Yount 76.9
42. Bill Dahlen 75.9
44. Arky Vaughan 75.6
[b:4385c75c25]54. Derek Jeter 70.4[/b:4385c75c25]
59. Luke Appling 69.3
61. Barry Larkin 68.4
71. Alan Trammell 66.9
I know Rivs is not interested in stats :wink: and macnole is busy moonlighting as Jeter's agent so he can be retroactively eligible for more high school awards, but what this says to me is that Derek Jeter is one of the best SS of all time. Right up there with Arky Vaughan and Luke Appling.....and Robin Yount...and a long way from Ripken.....and nowhere close to Wagner
The following statements are all true:
1-Derek Jeter has had a HOF career
2-Derek Jeter has been a fine leader for the Yankees over his career
3-The Yankees have made the playoffs every season except one since 1995
4-As the playoffs are currently constructed, winning a World Series is a crapshoot
5-Therefore, making the playoffs is the only true goal in constructing a team
6-The Yankees payroll has contributed [b:4385c75c25]much more[/b:4385c75c25] to their playoff run than any player who has appeared on their roster in the last 17 years. The ability to spend money to cover injuries, roster holes, and scouting & free agent mistakes is a huge advantage and cannot be overlooked.
Place Jeter on Robin Yount's Brewers for a 20 year career and Yount on Jeter's Yankees for a 20 year career. There wouldnt be much change in the way things have worked out historically.
- andycummings65
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by Mr Baseball World » Thu Apr 19, 2012 1:26 pm
You might actually give a little credit to his teammates. Maybe the massive payroll edge may play a role as well.
The difference between the Mattingly years and the Jeter years is less about the leadership of those two and more about the fact that in the Mattingly years collusion reigned and George was spending a payroll in line with the rest and in the Jeter years they were way beyond the rest in payroll.
Jeter is a hall of famer, great player and great for the Yankees. They can afford to overpay for him this year.
Other teams have guys like him. They lose them at some point to the haves...........and/or they don't have the resources to add the pieces around him the Yankess do and hence don't achieve the success the Yankees have............and/or they can't afford to pay them in the declining years as a thank you. When you try to make it all about "Jeter is a winner" there is an impication that all those guys(Mattingly included) are somehow lacking/losers/not leaders/whatever you want to call it.
The difference between the Mattingly years and the Jeter years is less about the leadership of those two and more about the fact that in the Mattingly years collusion reigned and George was spending a payroll in line with the rest and in the Jeter years they were way beyond the rest in payroll.
Jeter is a hall of famer, great player and great for the Yankees. They can afford to overpay for him this year.
Other teams have guys like him. They lose them at some point to the haves...........and/or they don't have the resources to add the pieces around him the Yankess do and hence don't achieve the success the Yankees have............and/or they can't afford to pay them in the declining years as a thank you. When you try to make it all about "Jeter is a winner" there is an impication that all those guys(Mattingly included) are somehow lacking/losers/not leaders/whatever you want to call it.
- Mr Baseball World
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
by macnole » Thu Apr 19, 2012 2:48 pm
Well heck I wouldn't intend to disparage Donnie.
But payrolls and the Yount thing are a copout of sorts. Why not the Dodgers? In that same era their payroll is almost always in the top 5. Money doesn't guarantee Jete's performance. Nor anyone else's.
Same token, playing in milwaukee or minnesota isn't exactly the same level of pressure and scrutiny either, night after night. "You went 0 for 3, why do you think you're in a slump?" Again, it goes both ways.
Of course this playful farsical post was not about saying he is the sole reason for their success. Otherwise, the same argument could be made for Mo or Posada. But as much as he wasn't a goat when hitting .200, he isn't a hero when hitting .300. Reminds me of a Hank Aaron. Year after year--always there bringing the same tools to the worksite as yesterday.
I don't accept WAR--it's just a rehash of the same stats. It's not new thinking, just a backward looking twist on existing stats--it is not predictive and mirrors statistical biases. Interesting, but not definitive. Like applying quantum physics to the macro-world.
Yes, I'm stubborn and satirical. And baiting. Good posts BBW, ac.
But payrolls and the Yount thing are a copout of sorts. Why not the Dodgers? In that same era their payroll is almost always in the top 5. Money doesn't guarantee Jete's performance. Nor anyone else's.
Same token, playing in milwaukee or minnesota isn't exactly the same level of pressure and scrutiny either, night after night. "You went 0 for 3, why do you think you're in a slump?" Again, it goes both ways.
Of course this playful farsical post was not about saying he is the sole reason for their success. Otherwise, the same argument could be made for Mo or Posada. But as much as he wasn't a goat when hitting .200, he isn't a hero when hitting .300. Reminds me of a Hank Aaron. Year after year--always there bringing the same tools to the worksite as yesterday.
I don't accept WAR--it's just a rehash of the same stats. It's not new thinking, just a backward looking twist on existing stats--it is not predictive and mirrors statistical biases. Interesting, but not definitive. Like applying quantum physics to the macro-world.
Yes, I'm stubborn and satirical. And baiting. Good posts BBW, ac.
- macnole
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
by Mr Baseball World » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:09 pm
I will reply this weekend. The economics of baseball is an interesting topic. Typically you get two extreme sides and my thought that reality is somewhere in the middle. Even more interesting to me is the discussion of what would make it better if anything.
New TV deals for the Rangers, Angels, Dodgers are closing the gap between them and the Yanks but will make it tougher for the bottom end to compete. Money guarantees nothing but sure helps your chances.
Quick note: While not so much now, if you look back 10 or so years ago, the Yanks were spending at times twice as much or almost that as teams at the bottom of the top 5 in salary.
New TV deals for the Rangers, Angels, Dodgers are closing the gap between them and the Yanks but will make it tougher for the bottom end to compete. Money guarantees nothing but sure helps your chances.
Quick note: While not so much now, if you look back 10 or so years ago, the Yanks were spending at times twice as much or almost that as teams at the bottom of the top 5 in salary.
- Mr Baseball World
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
by tsnstars » Thu Apr 19, 2012 3:42 pm
[quote:7112cc0665="andycummings65"][b:7112cc0665]Career WAR (Wins Above Replacement) for Shortstops[/b:7112cc0665]
Top 10 Shortstop Ranks
6. Honus Wagner 134.5
18. Alex Rodriguez 104.6
26. Cal Ripken 89.9
40. Robin Yount 76.9
42. Bill Dahlen 75.9
44. Arky Vaughan 75.6
[b:7112cc0665]54. Derek Jeter 70.4[/b:7112cc0665]
59. Luke Appling 69.3
61. Barry Larkin 68.4
71. Alan Trammell 66.9
I know Rivs is not interested in stats :wink: and macnole is busy moonlighting as Jeter's agent so he can be retroactively eligible for more high school awards, but what this says to me is that Derek Jeter is one of the best SS of all time. Right up there with Arky Vaughan and Luke Appling.....and Robin Yount...and a long way from Ripken.....and nowhere close to Wagner
The following statements are all true:
1-Derek Jeter has had a HOF career
2-Derek Jeter has been a fine leader for the Yankees over his career
3-The Yankees have made the playoffs every season except one since 1995
4-As the playoffs are currently constructed, winning a World Series is a crapshoot
5-Therefore, making the playoffs is the only true goal in constructing a team
6-The Yankees payroll has contributed [b:7112cc0665]much more[/b:7112cc0665] to their playoff run than any player who has appeared on their roster in the last 17 years. The ability to spend money to cover injuries, roster holes, and scouting & free agent mistakes is a huge advantage and cannot be overlooked.
Place Jeter on Robin Yount's Brewers for a 20 year career and Yount on Jeter's Yankees for a 20 year career. There wouldnt be much change in the way things have worked out historically.[/quote:7112cc0665]
I agree with your points on Jeter. The thing I found interesting on this thread was all the "winning/winner" comments thrown around. I looked at the above list of SS and noticed, except for Jeter, none had more than ONE World Series win.
But if WS wins become some kind of benchmark, then Rizzuto with 7 and Campaneris with 3 come into the discussion of top all time SS and I don't think they should.
Top 10 Shortstop Ranks
6. Honus Wagner 134.5
18. Alex Rodriguez 104.6
26. Cal Ripken 89.9
40. Robin Yount 76.9
42. Bill Dahlen 75.9
44. Arky Vaughan 75.6
[b:7112cc0665]54. Derek Jeter 70.4[/b:7112cc0665]
59. Luke Appling 69.3
61. Barry Larkin 68.4
71. Alan Trammell 66.9
I know Rivs is not interested in stats :wink: and macnole is busy moonlighting as Jeter's agent so he can be retroactively eligible for more high school awards, but what this says to me is that Derek Jeter is one of the best SS of all time. Right up there with Arky Vaughan and Luke Appling.....and Robin Yount...and a long way from Ripken.....and nowhere close to Wagner
The following statements are all true:
1-Derek Jeter has had a HOF career
2-Derek Jeter has been a fine leader for the Yankees over his career
3-The Yankees have made the playoffs every season except one since 1995
4-As the playoffs are currently constructed, winning a World Series is a crapshoot
5-Therefore, making the playoffs is the only true goal in constructing a team
6-The Yankees payroll has contributed [b:7112cc0665]much more[/b:7112cc0665] to their playoff run than any player who has appeared on their roster in the last 17 years. The ability to spend money to cover injuries, roster holes, and scouting & free agent mistakes is a huge advantage and cannot be overlooked.
Place Jeter on Robin Yount's Brewers for a 20 year career and Yount on Jeter's Yankees for a 20 year career. There wouldnt be much change in the way things have worked out historically.[/quote:7112cc0665]
I agree with your points on Jeter. The thing I found interesting on this thread was all the "winning/winner" comments thrown around. I looked at the above list of SS and noticed, except for Jeter, none had more than ONE World Series win.
But if WS wins become some kind of benchmark, then Rizzuto with 7 and Campaneris with 3 come into the discussion of top all time SS and I don't think they should.
- tsnstars
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
and then while I was driving home tonight....
by The Rivs » Thu Apr 19, 2012 7:38 pm
Jeter gets a two out single to tie the game. :wink:
even Ron Gardenhire calls him Capt. Clutch. And I'd like to say, someone said Jeter hasn't won Lately....well tell that to a Cubs Fan, see what they say about what 'lately' means in Baseball terms.
Lastly, I am interested in Stats, but I am also interested in Scoreboard. I take my cue from our subject hisself, who seems to only care about his team, and putting them in a winning position, as many nights as possible. Try to get him to admit he's injured, try to take him out of a game. When you play with a person whose focus is so team oriented, it creates the best kind of clubhouse for a team. And when that same person is the team Capt. it only works that much better. So.... When the old man steps up and ropes one of his patented slices to Rightfield for the tying run, like tonight, everyone else wants to muscle up too. And now they are up by two.
I'd say his stunningly unselfish play is part of that intangible that so many want to pretend isn't there. That and his ability to get the runs when the team needs them, and make the play from deep in the hole to end an inning last night, before he blasted a ninth inning dinger to put his guys closer to the win. A-rod? 0-27 for his first AB's in the playoffs with the Yankees, has hardly any clutch in him. I wouldn't take A-rod on any team I put together ever, to me he is antithetical to Jeter in sooooo many ways it's hard to say their names together and not laugh. A-Rod = someone I wouldn't be for all the money in the world, don't think I could be even if I tried. Always happy that my son likes DJ and not A-rod. Ripken had Angelos...Jeter Had Steinbrenner. I might begrudgingly say Ripken is close to Jeter, but I think Jeter still gets the edge, and he's not done yet. Also, wasn't Ripken at third at this point in his career? And who moved to third to play with Jeter coz he wanted to actually win something?
Rizzuto? Campanaris? It ain't just rings... consistency, leadership, clutch, AND the rings- to me he rates higher than everyone on the list but Wagner in these categories, along with the stats, these things gotta count for something. Campanaris?! Puh-LEEEEEASE!
even Ron Gardenhire calls him Capt. Clutch. And I'd like to say, someone said Jeter hasn't won Lately....well tell that to a Cubs Fan, see what they say about what 'lately' means in Baseball terms.
Lastly, I am interested in Stats, but I am also interested in Scoreboard. I take my cue from our subject hisself, who seems to only care about his team, and putting them in a winning position, as many nights as possible. Try to get him to admit he's injured, try to take him out of a game. When you play with a person whose focus is so team oriented, it creates the best kind of clubhouse for a team. And when that same person is the team Capt. it only works that much better. So.... When the old man steps up and ropes one of his patented slices to Rightfield for the tying run, like tonight, everyone else wants to muscle up too. And now they are up by two.
I'd say his stunningly unselfish play is part of that intangible that so many want to pretend isn't there. That and his ability to get the runs when the team needs them, and make the play from deep in the hole to end an inning last night, before he blasted a ninth inning dinger to put his guys closer to the win. A-rod? 0-27 for his first AB's in the playoffs with the Yankees, has hardly any clutch in him. I wouldn't take A-rod on any team I put together ever, to me he is antithetical to Jeter in sooooo many ways it's hard to say their names together and not laugh. A-Rod = someone I wouldn't be for all the money in the world, don't think I could be even if I tried. Always happy that my son likes DJ and not A-rod. Ripken had Angelos...Jeter Had Steinbrenner. I might begrudgingly say Ripken is close to Jeter, but I think Jeter still gets the edge, and he's not done yet. Also, wasn't Ripken at third at this point in his career? And who moved to third to play with Jeter coz he wanted to actually win something?
Rizzuto? Campanaris? It ain't just rings... consistency, leadership, clutch, AND the rings- to me he rates higher than everyone on the list but Wagner in these categories, along with the stats, these things gotta count for something. Campanaris?! Puh-LEEEEEASE!
- The Rivs
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- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
by Mr Baseball World » Thu Apr 19, 2012 10:26 pm
Jeter got a single to tie the game in the bottom of the second in his 1/5 night.......amazing!!!!!!!!!! The haters would have completely missed that and for some silly reason thought that Grandersons 5/5 with three homeruns was somehow more important. :P
- Mr Baseball World
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