Archive of SportingNews.com's old SOM Baseball forum

There's been a lot of talk about Dale Murray these last few days. This thread IS NOT about the morality of employing Murray, or anyone else, as a Super Reliever. I want to know why Murray's card is so special.

I've seen people do the Super Reliever thing before with Babe Adams, and to a lesser extent Bruce Sutter. I managed to squeeze 285 innings out of Sutter once.

What makes the Murray card so much more valuable than Sutter? Or Wilhelm and Milgus for that matter? Is the card itself that much better?

i have a feeling it is his R4.

-steven

Adams, Miljus, Wilhelm all R4 or more no?

Yes, Wilhelmina And Miljus are R4. Adams is R5.

I can't figure out why Adams is the non* reliever used to super relieve 90% of the time. I've heard Pedro can be used to, but I've not seen it. Slim Jones and Reulbach are also non* relievers in the same price range. Why not any of those guys? Why always Adams.

Same with Murray. Wilhelmina and to a lesser extent Miljus are R4 and similarly priced. But Petro and a few other players who are way better than me have gone bananas about this Murray card.

Why?

Edit: my iPad apparently corrects "Wilhelm" to "Wilhelmina". I feel it would be a shame to change my post at this point.

Super reliever strategy can only work if the RP endurance is rated R3 or higher. For a long time, Sutter was the preferred choice because he was the best R3 in the player pool. Adams at S8/R5 is the best R5 available, but his salary makes it too expensive to be a good value except at $140 million and above. Wilhelm and Schulz were the second-best options available. But when Murray was added, we now have a R4 with a better card than Wilhelm and more endurance than Sutter, which moves him to the top of the list. Miljus is clearly the best RP-only option rated at R5, but his card is far from unhittable, so most people prefer to use Murray, Sutter or Wilhelm instead.

I've used Pedro plenty in that role...love that card most, even more than Murray.

Let's take it apart one by one (all numbers in Vet 75 10-10 10-10)

One thing about Murray: No BP-Singles vs L. He's the same vs. L murderer in every park.

Murray vs Wilhelm
Wilhelm has that BPHR vs lefty problem. 6 of them vs L, 1 Vs R. Murray has none.
Wilhelm (92.7% L / 90.7% R) does get more outs than Murray ((92%/83.5%).
Wilhelm K's more (21.3%L/25%R) than Murray ((9.26% both sides)
Wilhelm gives up extra base hits (1,53% triples + natural HR + 6 BPHR vs Lefties / 3.24% doubles + a fractional HR + the BPHR). Murray gives up a fractional double to lefties, nothing more than singles and walks to righties).
Wilhelm fields better (3e0 vs 2e38) but Murray holds better (-5 vs Wilhlem +2)
Wilhelm is massively wild (17). Murray is not (3).
Ultimately, I like Murray because of the lack of HRs and XBHs and the hold rating. Wilhelm is a right park guy. Murray fits anywhere.

vs. Miljus.
Murray gives up fewer total hits, fewer XBH and gets guys out at a better clip.
Murray has a -5 hold rating, Miljus 0.
Miljus is a better fielder (2e0 vs 2e38)
There's a reason for the nearly million dollar difference in price.

Assuming we're talking 77 Sutter.
Murray has more potential innings R4 vs R3 (I think it's hard to get the full value of the R4, harder to get it from the R5, as it's situational).
Sutter gets guys out at a faster clip, but has a lot of doubles to righties, and a fractional natural HR.
Murray is less wild, holds better and doesn't have the big hit on his card.
Sutter is somewhat more effective, but does have that big hit potential.

I think the value of Murray has been overstated a bit. But it is a very nice card.

Murray has become "flavor of the month" and as such is almost impossible to get unless you draft him 1st. He is REALLY good - but not that freakin' good!!! I can almost guarantee that you can win without him :wink:

-FZL

[quote:bba51e10c4="Frank Zappa Lives!!!"]Murray has become "flavor of the month" and as such is almost impossible to get unless you draft him 1st. He is REALLY good - but not that freakin' good!!! I can almost guarantee that you can win without him :wink:

-FZL[/quote:bba51e10c4]

Really, I think Super R is a pretty good strategy. And you can do it with an R3-R5. Sutter and Wilhelm (even with the 6 bombs vs L) are viable. As is Miljus (His actuals are interesting... he has a high WHIP but a good ERA for the WHIP). As is Mike Marshall 72. Theoretically O'Dell could be used too.

You can win without Super R and you can lose with it.

I have tried and failed 3 times to get Murray since the card was added, twice I've got Rivera and once Sutter. I have to agree, it's just about impossible to get him unless you draft him #1 and I think that would be nuts. There are enough good pitchers to change from super reliever strategy after the draft if you need to.