Post poor in-game relief decisions here, Part II

[bernieh]

Hey everyone,

I hosted a thread a few months ago where I asked for examples of when you thought the computer manager did a poor job managing your bullpen. All the submissions were very helpful in pointing out to me where in the computer code to look, so I thank all of you for that.

I believe I've put enough traces in the code so that I can now determine exactly what the computer was thinking at a given moment. So I'd like to ask you all, again, to post examples of what you feel are poor in-game relief decisions. Before you post, please make sure you have a [i:83a084ce4c]reasonably-sized[/i:83a084ce4c] bullpen (at least 5 dedicated arms), and that your individual player settings make sense and are not too restrictive.

When posting, please include the following info:

- Game (ATG II, 2006, etc.)
- Team Name
- the link to the boxscore
- What happened
- Why you think it was a poor decision
(relevant settings; game situation; bullpen rest status)
- What you think would've been better

Important note: [b:83a084ce4c]please post your example the day it happens[/b:83a084ce4c]. The traces I've put in have exploded our logs to huge sizes so we're only able to keep 1 day of logs at a time. If I feel any given example needs to be responded, I'll edit the post with my response.

I still believe that the computer manager will do a good job with your bullpen if you carry a large, [i:83a084ce4c]realistic[/i:83a084ce4c] enough bullpen (at least 5 dedicated arms, preferably 6). That said, I do acknowledge that there's room for improvement, in certain areas more than others. Therefore I am committing the time and working with the Strat-O-Matic company to make this game the best it can be.

Thanks,
Bernie

[Semper Gumby]

Bernie,

I've grown from frustrated to just merely amused by the game engine -


[code:1:f5f4f2e99b]Bracket Busters IP H R ER BB SO HR PC ERA
S.Sanderson 5 4 1 1 2 3 0 82 4.22
D.Eckersley WIN(3-0) 4 6 0 0 0 3 0 50 1.03
Totals 9 10 1 1 2 6 0

Devil Dogs IP H R ER BB SO HR PC ERA
F.Valenzuela 8 5 0 0 2 7 0 126 3.49
W.Hernandez L(1-3)B(2nd) 1 3 2 2 0 2 0 24 2.79[/code:1:f5f4f2e99b]

Perhaps you can find some reason why HAL relieves Fat Fernando (didn't seem to be struggling to me and can't be tired with his S8 rating) for Hernandez (yes, he is my closer) but finds the patience to keep Eckersley in the game (R2 rated) despite Eckersley getting hit hard in his 3 inning of pitching?

You would have guessed that HAL would have pulled Eck too under your earlier explanation on why HAL uses the set-up / closers.

I'm sorry - there is something wrong with the code so it pulls the starters earlier (some days) and leaves the alone the other days.

I have seen too many outings ruined because HAL wants to make changes based on the weather.

[Apoptosis]

Funnily enough I have an anomaly from the same series, Hernandez was pulled for Haas who is not eligible to relieve. I'm guessing Gumby has don't exceed 2IP for his relievers, but still it seems that being an eligible reliever should take precedence over that setting.

[code:1:eb316166e1]Bracket Busters IP H R ER BB SO HR PC ERA
K.Forsch 4 1/3 9 6 6 0 1 1 82 4.20
L.Andersen 0 1 0 0 0 0 0 4 5.72
T.Burke BS(1st) 2 2/3 3 1 1 0 0 1 33 4.50
F.Dipino LOSS(0-1) 4 1/3 5 1 1 3 2 0 77 4.86
Totals 11 1/3 18 8 8 3 3 2

Devil Dogs IP H R ER BB SO HR PC ERA
S.Comer 1 5 4 4 0 0 1 31 4.06
B.Kison 2 2 2 2 0 1 1 35 5.32
S.Bedrosian 2 1 0 0 0 1 0 21 3.65
D.Bair 2 0 0 0 1 2 0 32 3.73
R.Murphy BS(3rd) 2 3 1 1 0 2 0 34 4.01
W.Hernandez 2 1 0 0 1 3 0 27 1.96
M.Haas WIN(1-2) 1 1 0 0 1 0 0 21 1.59
Totals 12 13 7 7 3 9 2
[/code:1:eb316166e1]

[Semper Gumby]

Ha!

I guess HAL does listen to the settings as I have all my relievers set for 2 innings max each. :D

What makes [b:eadc4b5bac]me wonder[/b:eadc4b5bac] is how ECK went 4 innings (2 more than his rating) while allowing all those hits?

I expected HAL to pull ECK at least on his 3rd inning of pitching.

:roll:

[bernieh]

Semper, you're consistently neglecting to supply a boxscore link or adequately describe the situation in your examples. Additionally, your persistent accusations that "something is wrong" are not exactly helpful, as I have clearly stated that there are certain areas of the computer code that we have targeted for investigation.

[Semper Gumby]

Bernie,

I assumed you had access to our teams

Here is the box score:

Box score link:

http://members.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/80s/league/boxscore.html?group_id=13185&g_id=324


[b:0ec4344c38]Manager Strategy:[/b:0ec4344c38]

Normal Relief / Regular Closer

Hernandez set as [i:0ec4344c38]closer both sides ONLY[/i:0ec4344c38]

Set-up - [b:0ec4344c38]NO ONE[/b:0ec4344c38]


[b:0ec4344c38]Individual Settings: [/b:0ec4344c38]

Fat Fernando - SLOW HOOK / IBB LESS / Avoid before 9th Inning

Hernandez - SLOW HOOK / IBB LESS / Avoid Blow Out / Avoid before 9th Inning

My same complaint has been HAL relieves starters earlier and often - or it appears HAL calculates relief changes in an ad hoc manner. While I haven't kept track of wins and losses, I usually notice it when my team wins :shock: and the starter is pulled early with little fatigue and very conservative relief settings.

If you set your manager settings to conservative and allow implement "slow hook" on your starters, shall you not expect to see less relief usage and more complete games?

In this case, Fat Fernando:

[list:0ec4344c38]Rated S8

Allowed just [b:0ec4344c38]two hits[/b:0ec4344c38] over his last three innings (5 hits and 2 walks in 7 innings)

Struck out 7 batters in 8 innings

Had the lead going into the 9th inning

Not stressed by any stretch of my SOM imagination

Set for [b:0ec4344c38]slow hook[/b:0ec4344c38]

Normal relief settings with regular closer rules in place

Pitching at Dodgers Stadium

.222 OAVG vs. RHBs and allowed just 3 HRs at home in 55 innings

AND, had been 2-0 versus this team in two starts[/list:u:0ec4344c38]


And HAL's response is - relieve Fernando with LH Willie Hernandez because Willie had a superior card?

Because we don't know what cards HAL is using, we can't declare that Willie Hernandez had a better chance versus this line-up nor can we say Fernandez's card is just damn lucky.

Well, what did we get for the switch

[code:1:0ec4344c38] SUBSTITUTE P - Willie Hernandez
0 A.Thornton 5 Double b-2
0 2 D.Strawberry 3 Single 2-3 b-1
0 1 3 G.Gaetti 3 Single 3-H 1-3 b-1
0 1 3 C.Cooper 1 Wild Pitch 3-H 1-2
0 2 C.Cooper 4 Strike Out b-0
1 2 A.Trammell 3 Strike Out b-0
2 2 O.Gamble 5 Fly Out b-0[/code:1:0ec4344c38]

Now, you may say - just bad dice - and HAL made the right move because you had a save situation and he used the correct reliever. [b:0ec4344c38]True.[/b:0ec4344c38]

However, using your thought process - my pitchers will never have a complete game UNLESS:

[list:0ec4344c38][b:0ec4344c38]My team outscores the opponent by more than 3 runs (non-save situation) because HAL will always invoke either my set-up man or closer[/b:0ec4344c38][/list:u:0ec4344c38]

While I[u:0ec4344c38] strain your statement some[/u:0ec4344c38], you are saying essentially that despite my conservative settings - I shall expect HAL to always relieve when:

[list:0ec4344c38](1) Set-up situation is present
(2) Mop-up situation is present
(3) Closing situation is present[/list:u:0ec4344c38]

[b:0ec4344c38]How can that be true with my settings?[/b:0ec4344c38]

With my settings, I expect more complete games from my three starters and limited relief usage with my two spot starters. Using the conservative manager strategy and individual player settings, I expect that I've overrridden HAL's natural inclination to relieve once the POW is reached.

However, I feel that I am pushing an idiot button with my teams and these pitching controls (manager strategy / individual settings) have little affect on HAL's triggers.


To that end, what makes your earlier statement on HAL's proper relief suspect is that in the same game HAL failed to remove ECK even though every reliever in Busters' bullpen was available to relieve that game:

Thurmond (R3) - 0 games
Eckersley (R2) - 1 games - 4 innings :shock:
Burke (R2) - 1 game 2.2 innings
Andersen (R2) 1 game 0 innings
Lucas (R2) - 0 games
Niedenfuer (R2) - 0 games
DiPino (R2) - 1 game 4.1 innings :shock:


So, explain to me why HAL didn't remove Eck - he pitched 4 innings and gave up 6 hits in 3 innings of pitching?

[YountFan]

[quote:9c00491a05]How can that be true with my settings? [/quote:9c00491a05]
It is the closer setting I bet. I don't use that stuff, the set up and closer, because seeing as you cannot tell what HAL will do, then give him the freedom to do what he wants. He's a rebel baby, a real bad boy, and it is better to humor him and then leave him alone.

[roofinghorse]

YOUNTFAN SAID:
It is the closer setting I bet. I don't use that stuff, the set up and closer, because seeing as you cannot tell what HAL will do, then give him the freedom to do what he wants. He's a rebel baby, a real bad boy, and it is better to humor him and then leave him alone.------
truth being said,WE are SUPPOSED TO BE the managers of our own teams and our settings SHOULD BE followed at all times.Semper Gumby has a very legitimate complaint as far as i am concerned....c,mon now...we,ve all been confused at 1 time or another(1000 times).....by the decisions hal has made....
hal should ONLY MAKE THE DECISIONS WHEN THERE ARE NO ALTERNATIVES LEFT TO HIM.
improvements can be made to the game engine to follow THE MANAGERS SETTINGS " FIRST".....
thats my opinion-slug out

[YountFan]

HAL brought in his closer for the 9th. This is an automatic move these days in the big leagues. It was in the 80's also. How can you camplain about the move? Had Hernandez set the side down 1-2-3, it would naot have been a problem and HAL would have looked like a genius. If Gumby was managing the game live he too may have brought in Hernandez, but when you're Monday monring quarterbacking it is easy to see that Willie should have stayed in the pen because he got shelled.

Bernie should ask for the times HAL made the right moves too. Because I think too many of the bad moves are only bas because the new pitcher got hit hard. Sometime HAL makes boneheaded moves, so did Sparky Anderson and every other real life manager.

[rookssa1958]

Hey my question about HAL's logic goes to basic baseball management 101.
If you have a LH starter, precedence should be given to making the first guy out of the pen a RH reliever to "turn" the lineup.

I have an example:

http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/80s/league/boxscore.html?group_id=13043&g_id=581

although no example is probably needed, it just seems the logic should contain basic tenets such as this when possible.