Burleson vs. Metzger

[YountFan]

Then is defense over rated? Does the 1+ chance per game make a difference. In a single game, yes, over 162 game, yes, but how much? Different folks like different options and that is way guys like Templeton and Thon played in the bigs, but then Belanger played for Weaver, and his should know something about the game

[Jimmy_C]

One funny twist to this thread. After Larry dropped Metzger...I picked him up. I dropped DeJesus who was underperforming and was a real error-monster.

I've had Metzger in 6 games and he's hitting .308 with .629 OPS. It is his '71 or '73 card (his best 2 OPS years) so I'm expecting fair production at the plate. The best benefit is he's had no errors so far, and my team has gone 5-1.

When Larry dropped Metzger for Burleson, he made 2 teams better. :D

[Larryrickenbacker]

Howdy,

Interesting observation there, Jimmy C. If Burleson can maintain his .350 OBP, I'll be thrilled! Of course, he's only had 39 ABs..
As for Metzger, no doubt you'll be quite satisfied if [i:53a8708ca7]he[/i:53a8708ca7] can maintain his .321 OBP for what you paid for him.
It'll be comical if both of us come away happy. Meanwhile, i just drafted Metzger for my Cleveland Municipal team. I remember that Giants coach F.J. "Salty" Parker told me in '83 that Metzger was the best defensive SS he'd seen in 30 years! My first MLB games were in the early 70s at the 'Dome, so i'm sentimental about the Astros. BTW, Parker was an Astros asst. coach when Metzger played in Houston..

Larry

[LMBombers]

[quote:e9c608284f="YountFan"]Then is defense over rated? [/quote:e9c608284f]

A great question. If you have played the 2008 game you know that Hanley Ramirez is a monster at the plate but a 3e24 at SS. Does his offense overshadow his defense? Would you rather have a Roger Metzger play SS (give him his middle year of offense for comparison sake since HanRam's card is no mystery) in place of HanRam if you couldn't DH Ramirez? It is tough to say that either is a bad call really, simply different strategies.

[durantjerry]

I have actually used Lind the same way as Metzger. Just made the playoffs in the 70's/80's Touney in the Dome and I'm 23-16(Jack Murphy) in the 70's/80's theme league with Lind at 2B. He's sucking offensively, but someone has to catch the ball. I wouldn't do it regularly as I would with Metzger, but it's a viable strategy on the right team.

[voovits]

[quote:217f460063="YountFan"]Then is defense over rated? Does the 1+ chance per game make a difference. In a single game, yes, over 162 game, yes, but how much? Different folks like different options and that is way guys like Templeton and Thon played in the bigs, but then Belanger played for Weaver, and his should know something about the game[/quote:217f460063]

You know I was quite surprised at the x-result analysis I did. I was really expecting a higher number, probably closer to a little less than 2 per game.
It really does make me re-think defensive strategies.
Normally I wouldn't dream of using anything worse than a 2 at SS or 2B unless the offensive production is amazing (Hubie Brooks 86 for example).
This analysis makes me rethink that.
Not to say I would field a team of 4 defense guys, but having a bad defenders at a key defensive spot may not hurt you as much as originally thought.
I am interested now in seeing how many total x-rolls all the other positions get through the course of a season.

[YountFan]

On SOM Terms '3' is an Average, '2' Above Avg, '1' Outstanding, '4' Below Avg

Here is some more feed to chew on

http://andrew-stevens.tripod.com/index/stratfield.html

[hallerose]

Here is my basic analysis of Metzger vs. Templeton.

Metzger 1 e16
Templeton 2 e44

1 vs. 2 at SS is worth about 27 hits vs. outs over the course of a season. All the extra hits will be singles.

shortstop - fielding rating is king
· 1ss34 = 2e7, better than any other rating
· 1ss54 = 2ss29 = 3ss4, better than any other rating
· 1ss84 = 2ss60 = 3ss38 = 4ss10, better than any other rating

16 vs. 44 errors is an extra 28 errors over a normal season. Mostly 1 base errors, but a couple extra 2 base errors.

Over the course of a normal season Metzger’s defense is 55 hits/errors better for about 57 “defensive total bases”.

Assuming about 660 plate appearances, this is worth about .083 on obp and about .086 in slugging percentage.

Based on YountFan’s stats, Metzger gets you on average .283 obp and .295 slg. If you add his defensive advance, you get to .366 obp and .381 obp, .747 ops.

Templeton gets you .328 obp and .411 slg. for .739 ops.

There are obviously other factors, stealing, bunting, ballpark HRs, injury duration. I’ve used Metzger a few times on “pitching” teams with solid results.

[YountFan]

[quote:3e8b106fe1]Metzger gets you on average .283 obp and .295 slg. If you add his defensive advance, you get to .366 obp and .381 obp, .747 ops.

Templeton gets you .328 obp and .411 slg. for .739 ops. [/quote:3e8b106fe1]
That is money analysis

The counter argument is you cannot score of you're not on base and GT is on base .328 (or .042 more than RM), HOWEVER, RM D keeps others OFF the bases .083 more (I guess). So to make your pitchers better go with RM because you also save cash

[JONCHUCKERY]

It also goes back to what else using Metzger allows you to do. The extra money means an upgrade elsewhere...i.e. Metzger/Bench vs Fisk/Burleson.

I did a few numbers crunching...I've used J Bench only 2 less times than Fisk and I've only hit 1970 once and never hit 1972 so I've not gotten his best on a regular basis...On avg, Bench produces about 40 more runs per season than Fisk has for me (173-134). Metzger on average produces about 95 runs per season...so can you assure me that Burleson will on a season for season avg of using make up the difference spending the extra 2mil to upgrade to Bench gives me? Its nothing against Fisk who I love but JB has never driven in less than 108 for me while I've had Fisk in the 55+RBI range before...and obviously in above example all defense is a wash because you get "1s" no matter what combo.