All of the cumulative data I have viewed from completed 80's seasons support the Park Factor posted by YF above. Of course the easiest data to view is for my teams that I have completed because I have them all in one book at my desk in the office and thus is the data I used in my statements.
Personally, I'm starting to think Key does deserve the award. I have not checked what park he pitched in yet though :D
BACK TO 1985 - Finals - London Knights win championship!
by BC Manager » Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:14 am
I feel I've gotta weigh in here, though I'll mostly be repeating what I've already said:
- YF's total baseball stats are interesting but unless they're based on strat, I think they're irrelevant. You can't actually apply real life analysis to SOM in this case. For example, in RL, I believe it's been demonstrated that it's easier to hit 2B's and 3B's in Fenway, something that isn't factored in our version of strat.
- As long as I've played SOM (5 years), I've played under the assumption that the difference between a hitter's park and pitcher's park is almost entirely based on the BP HR numbers and this assumption has been consistently borne out. However the Murph/Fenway comparison is intriguing because they are almost exceptions to this rule -- Fenways singles ALMOST make it a hitter's park; Murphs singles ALMOST make it a pitcher's park. The fact remains that McReynolds played half his games in a park that increased his HR total. Bell played half his game in a park that increased his singles total. How much each benefited is impossible to really determine.
- Sykes' point that park should be irrelevant has some merit. In RL I don't think most writers factor in the ballpark when evaluating a season (though I have - ie., runs/HR's are slightly less valuable in a hitter's park such as Coors than they are in a park like Comerica). Most writers don't look at OPS or RC/27 either. In RL I believe most of those voting would look at these two players equal BA, McReynold's higher HR total, Bell's higher RBI total, McR's higher SLU and OBP, Bell's higher 2B's, Bell's 162 games and find it hard to choose between them. In today's game, they might look at these stats and choose Key, given how much harder it is to put together that strong a pitching season these days (and this could be said for SOM, even if it is the 80s)
- Sykes, you could show me 5000 Murph teams vs. 5000 Fenway teams and it still wouldn't prove anything. It's impossible to control for all other factors, especially with the mystery card. It's anectdotal evidence. It may be the case that it's easier to put together a team that performs offensively with Fenway's BP numbers -- RH sluggers + high BA/OBP guys, or whathaveyou.
- I'm not sure how to resolve this. No one's arguement seems strong enough to be convincing enough to pick one guy over the other. Again, I'm inclined to declare a tie (or give it to Key, a case there seems to be some momentum for)
Would someone like to throw this argument out to the broader community to discuss? The argument is an intriguing one.
- YF's total baseball stats are interesting but unless they're based on strat, I think they're irrelevant. You can't actually apply real life analysis to SOM in this case. For example, in RL, I believe it's been demonstrated that it's easier to hit 2B's and 3B's in Fenway, something that isn't factored in our version of strat.
- As long as I've played SOM (5 years), I've played under the assumption that the difference between a hitter's park and pitcher's park is almost entirely based on the BP HR numbers and this assumption has been consistently borne out. However the Murph/Fenway comparison is intriguing because they are almost exceptions to this rule -- Fenways singles ALMOST make it a hitter's park; Murphs singles ALMOST make it a pitcher's park. The fact remains that McReynolds played half his games in a park that increased his HR total. Bell played half his game in a park that increased his singles total. How much each benefited is impossible to really determine.
- Sykes' point that park should be irrelevant has some merit. In RL I don't think most writers factor in the ballpark when evaluating a season (though I have - ie., runs/HR's are slightly less valuable in a hitter's park such as Coors than they are in a park like Comerica). Most writers don't look at OPS or RC/27 either. In RL I believe most of those voting would look at these two players equal BA, McReynold's higher HR total, Bell's higher RBI total, McR's higher SLU and OBP, Bell's higher 2B's, Bell's 162 games and find it hard to choose between them. In today's game, they might look at these stats and choose Key, given how much harder it is to put together that strong a pitching season these days (and this could be said for SOM, even if it is the 80s)
- Sykes, you could show me 5000 Murph teams vs. 5000 Fenway teams and it still wouldn't prove anything. It's impossible to control for all other factors, especially with the mystery card. It's anectdotal evidence. It may be the case that it's easier to put together a team that performs offensively with Fenway's BP numbers -- RH sluggers + high BA/OBP guys, or whathaveyou.
- I'm not sure how to resolve this. No one's arguement seems strong enough to be convincing enough to pick one guy over the other. Again, I'm inclined to declare a tie (or give it to Key, a case there seems to be some momentum for)
Would someone like to throw this argument out to the broader community to discuss? The argument is an intriguing one.
- BC Manager
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by YountFan » Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:19 am
[quote:f8f08a6cc3]YF's total baseball stats are interesting but unless they're based on strat[/quote:f8f08a6cc3]
The opposite is true BC. Strat is based on stats like these. Where do you think they get the BP effects from?
[quote:f8f08a6cc3] believe it's been demonstrated that it's easier to hit 2B's and 3B's in Fenway, something that isn't factored in our version of strat. [/quote:f8f08a6cc3]If we're running max runs then these things are factored in. There is just no way to prove it.
I suggest you stick with Bell as ROY and put the dreaded "(disputed)" tag on him. Oh, the shame, Oh the horror.....
The opposite is true BC. Strat is based on stats like these. Where do you think they get the BP effects from?
[quote:f8f08a6cc3] believe it's been demonstrated that it's easier to hit 2B's and 3B's in Fenway, something that isn't factored in our version of strat. [/quote:f8f08a6cc3]If we're running max runs then these things are factored in. There is just no way to prove it.
I suggest you stick with Bell as ROY and put the dreaded "(disputed)" tag on him. Oh, the shame, Oh the horror.....
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by BC Manager » Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:26 am
[quote:cc41e23e3c="YountFan"][quote:cc41e23e3c]YF's total baseball stats are interesting but unless they're based on strat[/quote:cc41e23e3c]
The opposite is true BC. Strat is based on stats like these. Where do you think they get the BP effects from?
[/quote:cc41e23e3c]
Can you explain to me how they took these stats and came up with the ballpark effects for Murph and Fenway? The strat numbers clearly aren't based on some overall number like this, but rather an analysis of HR's and singles.
If any of you want to enter a league with me in the future, take Murph as your park and assemble a team together that's designed to play in a pitcher's park, be my guest. :D :wink:
The opposite is true BC. Strat is based on stats like these. Where do you think they get the BP effects from?
[/quote:cc41e23e3c]
Can you explain to me how they took these stats and came up with the ballpark effects for Murph and Fenway? The strat numbers clearly aren't based on some overall number like this, but rather an analysis of HR's and singles.
If any of you want to enter a league with me in the future, take Murph as your park and assemble a team together that's designed to play in a pitcher's park, be my guest. :D :wink:
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by Sykes25 » Thu Apr 13, 2006 9:47 am
[quote:b39e470893]If any of you want to enter a league with me in the future, take Murph as your park and assemble a team together that's designed to play in a pitcher's park, be my guest.[/quote:b39e470893]
I'l take you up on that provided you let me pick my pitchers. You can choose my 15 hitters for me and I will list them on my draft card in the first 15 spots. Of course the list is subject to discussion first.
Want to know who my favorite hitter is in Fenway?
Mike Marshall! Try him there sometime. He is good even in his worst season.
I'l take you up on that provided you let me pick my pitchers. You can choose my 15 hitters for me and I will list them on my draft card in the first 15 spots. Of course the list is subject to discussion first.
Want to know who my favorite hitter is in Fenway?
Mike Marshall! Try him there sometime. He is good even in his worst season.
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by albert2b » Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:12 am
[quote:2c7a6530d9]Your logic is an opinion, and one I disagree with tremendously.[/quote:2c7a6530d9]
Please let me know exactly WHICH of the following statements are "opinions" and not factual.
[b:2c7a6530d9] 1) The HR splits in Fenway for a RH batter is 1-9.
2) The HR splits at the Murph for a RH batter is 1-16.
3) Bell played in Fenway in 1985.
4) K-Mac played at the Murph in 1985.
5) If K-Mac had played at Fenway, the chances of him hitting fewer HR than he did at the Murph becomes greater.
6) If Bell played at the Murph, the chances of him hitting more HR than he did in Fenway becomes greater.
7) Home Runs directly impact RC, OPS, TOTAL AVG, and SLG more so than singles.[/b:2c7a6530d9]
[quote:2c7a6530d9]Teams that play in Fenway will score more runs on average that teams that play in Jack Murphy.
What does this mean? Players in Fenway will produce better hitting statistics than players in Jack Murphy. I could post links to 5 Fenway teams and 40+ Jack Muprhy Teams to prove this statistical data, but I dont think that will solve anything. [/quote:2c7a6530d9]
You're right. It won't solve a thing....and it sure as heck won't PROVE anything. Again, each and every one of your teams (both at Fenway and the Murph) had it's own UNIQUE team/league dynamic. They played in different leagues. They faced different opponents. They each had different players on them. To say that teams that play in Fenway will score more on average than Murph teams based your 40+ COMPLETELY DIFFERENT teams...well, it's just not an accurate representation of what you're trying to prove.
[quote:2c7a6530d9]While I understand and appreciate your points, it does not mean I will roll over and say that your are right. [/quote:2c7a6530d9]
Sykes, please don't misinterpret what I'm doing here. I'm not trying to get you to say I'm right. All I'm doing is defending my position in my selection of an imaginary and completely SUBJECTIVE award.
[quote:2c7a6530d9]Awards are determined my statistics and the impact those statistics have on the league.[/quote:2c7a6530d9]
Again, this is either your opinion or something you THINK is factual. You should check the 1995 AL MVP vote. Albert Belle beat out Mo Vaughn in every single offensive category, while playing for a 100 win Cleveland Indians team....yet Vaughn took home the award. Not saying that ALL awards are popularity contests like this one clearly was, but all clearly ARE NOT determined by statistics, no matter how much of an impact they have on a league.
[quote:2c7a6530d9]Why did Bell have more RBI? Maybe because more guys were on base. Why? BECAUSE HE PLAYED IN FENWAY. Why did Bell score more runs? BECAUSE HE PLAYED IN FENWAY.[/quote:2c7a6530d9]
Perhaps. But don't forget....RUNS AND RBIS are also a direct bi-product of HOME RUNS....and we all know who has the advantage there.
Look Sykes, I'm not planning to debate you anymore about this. My boss would kill me if he knew how much time I've already spent doing this. I don't think any of the above are anything but facts that support my selection of Bell. If you feel differently, then I guess we agree to disagree. I'm willing to leave it at that.
However, if it really irks you that I gave the ROY to Bell, then here's a suggestion. Make your own All-Star and Awards selections. I'd love to see someone else's opinion of who's deserving of these honors. And I wouldn't mind taking a few shots at your selections either :wink: :)
Please let me know exactly WHICH of the following statements are "opinions" and not factual.
[b:2c7a6530d9] 1) The HR splits in Fenway for a RH batter is 1-9.
2) The HR splits at the Murph for a RH batter is 1-16.
3) Bell played in Fenway in 1985.
4) K-Mac played at the Murph in 1985.
5) If K-Mac had played at Fenway, the chances of him hitting fewer HR than he did at the Murph becomes greater.
6) If Bell played at the Murph, the chances of him hitting more HR than he did in Fenway becomes greater.
7) Home Runs directly impact RC, OPS, TOTAL AVG, and SLG more so than singles.[/b:2c7a6530d9]
[quote:2c7a6530d9]Teams that play in Fenway will score more runs on average that teams that play in Jack Murphy.
What does this mean? Players in Fenway will produce better hitting statistics than players in Jack Murphy. I could post links to 5 Fenway teams and 40+ Jack Muprhy Teams to prove this statistical data, but I dont think that will solve anything. [/quote:2c7a6530d9]
You're right. It won't solve a thing....and it sure as heck won't PROVE anything. Again, each and every one of your teams (both at Fenway and the Murph) had it's own UNIQUE team/league dynamic. They played in different leagues. They faced different opponents. They each had different players on them. To say that teams that play in Fenway will score more on average than Murph teams based your 40+ COMPLETELY DIFFERENT teams...well, it's just not an accurate representation of what you're trying to prove.
[quote:2c7a6530d9]While I understand and appreciate your points, it does not mean I will roll over and say that your are right. [/quote:2c7a6530d9]
Sykes, please don't misinterpret what I'm doing here. I'm not trying to get you to say I'm right. All I'm doing is defending my position in my selection of an imaginary and completely SUBJECTIVE award.
[quote:2c7a6530d9]Awards are determined my statistics and the impact those statistics have on the league.[/quote:2c7a6530d9]
Again, this is either your opinion or something you THINK is factual. You should check the 1995 AL MVP vote. Albert Belle beat out Mo Vaughn in every single offensive category, while playing for a 100 win Cleveland Indians team....yet Vaughn took home the award. Not saying that ALL awards are popularity contests like this one clearly was, but all clearly ARE NOT determined by statistics, no matter how much of an impact they have on a league.
[quote:2c7a6530d9]Why did Bell have more RBI? Maybe because more guys were on base. Why? BECAUSE HE PLAYED IN FENWAY. Why did Bell score more runs? BECAUSE HE PLAYED IN FENWAY.[/quote:2c7a6530d9]
Perhaps. But don't forget....RUNS AND RBIS are also a direct bi-product of HOME RUNS....and we all know who has the advantage there.
Look Sykes, I'm not planning to debate you anymore about this. My boss would kill me if he knew how much time I've already spent doing this. I don't think any of the above are anything but facts that support my selection of Bell. If you feel differently, then I guess we agree to disagree. I'm willing to leave it at that.
However, if it really irks you that I gave the ROY to Bell, then here's a suggestion. Make your own All-Star and Awards selections. I'd love to see someone else's opinion of who's deserving of these honors. And I wouldn't mind taking a few shots at your selections either :wink: :)
- albert2b
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by Sykes25 » Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:25 am
In other news...
The "I had my best year's card, but I decided to suck like a Dyson" award goes to Lou Whitaker. 1983 card and he puts up a .325 OBP?
Runner up was Ken Phelps whose .316 OBP in a .403 OBP year and 8R rating really helps his cause.
The "I had my best year's card, but I decided to suck like a Dyson" award goes to Lou Whitaker. 1983 card and he puts up a .325 OBP?
Runner up was Ken Phelps whose .316 OBP in a .403 OBP year and 8R rating really helps his cause.
- Sykes25
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by albert2b » Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:34 am
[quote:e8bf7059d5]Runner up was Ken Phelps whose .316 OBP in a .403 OBP year and 8R rating really helps his cause. [/quote:e8bf7059d5]
Wow, I could've sworn it was his 2nd worst year when I cut him :shock: Turns out it was his 2nd best. At least he underperformed for you too :lol:
Wow, I could've sworn it was his 2nd worst year when I cut him :shock: Turns out it was his 2nd best. At least he underperformed for you too :lol:
- albert2b
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Give Rice some love
by YountFan » Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:34 am
1978 Rice in Riverfront in 632 AB
BA SLG OBP OPS
.256 .502 .304 .806
78 Card
315 .600 .369 .969
Explain that! [/url]
BA SLG OBP OPS
.256 .502 .304 .806
78 Card
315 .600 .369 .969
Explain that! [/url]
- YountFan
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
another underachiever
by albert2b » Thu Apr 13, 2006 10:41 am
Jerry Mumphrey, who I knew had his 1987 card (.333, .534, .401) but hit .275, .409, .346 :cry:
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