Hall of Fame 2006: Results Really In! Sutter Really Wins!

[Runnin Rebel]

Can we pick 'em or can we pick 'em.....

OK OK having such a weak freshman class with no clear first-ballot Hall-of-Famer really helped Sutter's chances for election. But on the other side things really get tough next year with Ripken, Gwynn and McGwire on the horizon. The opportunity for these fringe stars will be 2008 if they stick around that long.

One question you have to ask of players like Rice and Dawson and Morris is, "Does being the best of their decade or generation enough to put them against the best of all-time." Sure they might represent the superstar of the late 20th century, but they will have to rely on the Veterans Committee to garner enough support for entry.



Making a case for Blyleven is going to be tough. Sure he has the stats (Strikeouts, wins), but spending the majority of his career in the Media Siberia that is Minnesota and Cleveland really doesn't help his cause with the sportswriters.

As for myself, growing up in St. Louis, I NEVER got to see Blyleven pitch (what a shame). Sure we would read his numbers off the back of a baseball card or see in the box scores where he won another 20-games, but to see that curveball live had to be a treasure. The only problem was the Twins were stuck in the second division and never a staple on NBC's Game of the Week like the Yankees, Reds and Dodgers.

[Runnin Rebel]

Now comes the BIG question, what hat will Bruce don on his HOF plaque, Cub or Cardinal???

Being a Cardinal fan I still get chills seeing him fan "Stormin' " Gorman Thomas for the last out of the '82 Series, but I would not be opposed to him taking the third option and go into the Hall hatless.

[Outta Leftfield]

I think both Rice and Gossage have a decent chance to make the Hall. Both were just under 65% this year, and guys who rise to that level usually make it eventually--though probably not next year, given the strong freshman class. Helping Gossage might be the logic--"If Sutter is in, why not the Goose?" Rice might benefit by the steroid scandals--his voting spiked this year and his numbers start to look pretty good if a shadow of doubt hangs over the present era. It will be interesting to see how McGwire is received by the voters. My guess is he gets in, but not on the first ballot. Some voters will punish him a little by making him wait a year or two.

Dawson, at 61%, also still has a chance. Not sure about Bert. I think the rest are goners, at least as far as the BBWWA is concerned. 75% is a really tough standard, as we learned from our own voting process.

I think guys like Trammell and Blyleven would have had a good chance with the old Veteran Committee but not with the current dysfunctional version. It will eventually have to be replaced--the HOF needs to enshrine people with some regularity to keep the tourists coming--but who knows what form that will take or what sort of player they will favor.

[Moodywoody]

McGuire may have a problem getting into the Hall. Given the backlash against Palmeiro and the way McGuire took the fifth at the Senate hearings, I think his stock has gone down quite a bit. Also, I am not totally convinced that McGuire even should be in the Hall. One could argue that if he should be, then why not Canseco?


McGuire came into prominence for breaking Maris' long standing record. I doubt he would have done it without steroids. If Palmeiro is going to be blacklisted because of steroid use, then why not others who built up great stats due to steroids?


I just find these steroid stars problematic. Think about how many border line starts from the sixties and seventies would have become superstars if they had access to steroid use. The stats would be very different.


Rice was a good player. i just don't remember as a great player. I remember Freddie Lynn being a great player for the short time he played, but not Rice. Sure, he put up decent numbers, but I don't remember him as the impact player that Lynn was, or the clutch player or leader that Fisk was. Maybe it is because he never won a World Series that is hurting his chances. It is hard to put a finger on it.

[baracus68]

[quote:a864d24fad]Rice was a good player. i just don't remember as a great player. I remember Freddie Lynn being a great player for the short time he played, but not Rice. Sure, he put up decent numbers, but I don't remember him as the impact player that Lynn was, or the clutch player or leader that Fisk was.[/quote:a864d24fad]

I hear you, moodywoody, but if you'll allow an old Bosox fan a chance to vent (not at you but just about the disappointing vote):

I love Fred Lynn, the Pete Reiser of the '70s-'80s, but in both of Lynn's two "look out, Cooperstown" seasons, 1975 and 1979, Rice's numbers were virtually equal to Lynn's. And then between those two years and afterward, when Lynn was settling into his .280/20 HR/80 RBI groove, Rice continued to hit .300, drive in 100 plus, and smack 35 plus homers every year. I can't really speak with any authority of his abilities as a leader, but he WAS named captain of the Red Sox. He may or may not have been as good a leader as, say, the current Sox captain, Jason Varitek, but baseball teams don't seem to throw around that captaincy lightly, so there must have been some kind of respect for his ability to lead.

If he only could have stuck around at a high level for a couple more seasons, the numbers would have become impossible to ignore. It's funny, though, he gets penalized for not lasting long enough to compile the numbers of a similar hitter, Eddie Murray, and yet his period of excellence, 1975-1986, lasted longer than Mr. HOF 2006, Sutter (1977-1984). It ain't fair, I tells ya!!

[Moodywoody]

You make good points regarding Rice. It may be that Rice did not play
a flashy position; did not win a major award like MVP; or finish first in many offensive categories during a particular season. It would be difficult to argue that he was the best leftfielder of his era. Finally, RBI's and homers are not the ultimate criteria of greatness, otherwise Kingman would be in the Hall of Fame. Look at the problems Tony Perez faced trying to get into the Hall.


In defense of Freddie Lynn, he was injured most of his career. Even when he played he was fighting nagging injuries that affected his play.


In regard to Sutter, he was in my opinion not only the best reliever of his era, but maybe one of the greatest of all time. That is why the Hall recognized him this year.


Maybe my criteria is too demanding, but I just don't see Rice as one of the all time greats. He is one of the best to have played the game, but there are many in this group who never get to the Hall.

[cplake]

"It may be that Rice did not play
a flashy position; did not win a major award like MVP"

Rice was the 1978 AL MVP.......

The only knock on him really is that he wasn't your typical clubhouse leader. He was the silent type of guy that tried to lead by example. He wasn't real vocal or flashy. He has the numbers IMO.

[gc102600]

Gossage, Rice are no-brainers (IMO) Dawson, Morris, Blyleven and L.Smith deserve it as well. It kills me that some idiots get the right to vote and then place votes for Hal Morris and Walt Weiss rather than place votes for those who deserve one of the 10 spots on a voting card. Anyone who votes like that should have their privilege revoked!

[Moodywoody]

I stand corrected on the MVP for Rice. My memory failed there.

At the end of the day, maybe Rice is a victim of perception. He was a quiet guy that did his job in a very professional and non-emotional way. Maybe if he had played as a Yankee, he would have been a lock on the Hall. Maybe it is because he did not meet certain career milestones that many writers consider essential to go to the Hall.


As I said before, however, no one denies that Rice was a special player. It is just was he great enough to get into the Hall. There are many examples of players who were very good who did not go to the Hall.


When you think of Rickey Henderson, no one doubts he is a first ballot entry into the Hall. No one questioned Winfield. Aaron. Mays. Rice is at a level where I think there is legitimate debate. Nevertheless, though I doubt he will be elected by the writers, he may still make it through the committee selection.

[cplake]

I dug up this article by Boston Globe writer Dan Shaughnessy. The stats on Rice are undeniably HOF caliber. The article also reveals that he was not a good friend of the baseball writers.

http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/articles/2005/12/06/rices_chances_were_never_better/