Flotsam and Jetsam: The Tune of the Game

[MtheB]

[b:833190a4a9]Early in, early un-proven conclusions:[/b:833190a4a9]
1) The drafts have already become predictable, the FA list after the waiver wire looks increasingly similar. This will lose alot of owners interest after awhile. Injuries seem to be dictating alot of how owners draft, shouldn't be as much of a factor.

2) There is a strong lack of left handed power, and only one LH favored park. Quite a few RH sluggers with big seasons: Schmidt, Bench, Kingman, killebrew, etc.
Looks like many owners are discovering that LH power can be ignored both in terms of hitting and pitching, much like the early 2000 season games.
This is unfortunate, as it takes away a big aspect of strategy, drafting and lineups. They could have put in some much better LH slugger years, too bad they didn't.

3) Not alot of diverse park options, not alot of park variety. bummer.

4) Lots of basestealers, but even if you have 8 base stealers in your lineup, and your settings set to aggressive or very aggressive facing a +1 catcher, , the game engine seems to be very conservative, seems to be some kind of programmed limiter on stealing.

5) Not alot of reverse pitchers, particularly starters. Reverse righties/lefties are a viable effective strategy in ATG3 and in 2006, not good options in this game for either side. Too bad, it makes the game more interesting.

6) Seeing that unbalanced score phenomena that we saw early in some of the other games. Your team loses two low scoring games in a series, wins one game 15-2. Seems like a a score engine programming thing is in operation here, if there is, lets get rid of it.

7) Injuries are just too big a factor in this game. Either astro turf caused alot more injuries, or alot of players went home on leave for personal reasons, or platooning became rampant, or strat just didn't want to give us normal seasons....whatever it is, injuries will decide many pennant races and that is unfortunate.
You can of course spend more on your bench, but then you know what will happen.......
Already seeing teams with 3-4 players injured at a time. Not good.

:( Trading is virtually gone, haven't seen but one or two in the many leagues I am in.

[b:833190a4a9]Conclusions:[/b:833190a4a9] of course the game is fun, its a new game, with new players. But the games that are most successful, are the ones where owners have options, and outcomes are factored more by strategy than luck.
[u:833190a4a9]Would highly recommend some immediate fixes to the game:[/u:833190a4a9]
a) Put in more 70's years, more years with more AB's, reduce injuries as a major results factor. Put in the marquee years for key players, Lynn's 75 just one of many examples.
b) put in some strong LH power hitting years. Otherwise, left-handers can be ignored, options are limited, draft/FA list looks the same.
c) Put in some good reverse righty/lefty starter seasons. Really need this to spice things up.
d) fix the game engine so artificial compensators don't rule the roost.--i.e. score balancers, base stealing limiters etc.
e) Let's get this fixed soon, so the popularity of this game doesn't go by the wayside. Injuries, lack of options, lack of LH power, lack of reverse pitchers, etc.--all these will be factors in how many teams are bought, particularly after the first round of initial excitement wears off. This could be made to be as popular as ATG3, but only if some effective fixes are made fairly soon.

Thoughts?

[Jablowmi]

I think a lot of the things you are seeing are a by-product of the 70s. How can they put in more LH power? Also, I'm not sure why LH power can be ignored, or maybe I'm missing your point. If you can stack a team with the top LH hitters/power, particualrly in a Yankee Stadium or other hitter's park, I think you have a significant advantage. Wouldn't you like to face guys like JR, Eck, etc., with a lefty-stacked lineup in Yankee Stadium?

Re: the injuries, I think it is simply another decision that you must make in the 70s game - how do you balance defense vs. the cost of defense, particularly for MI? do you take a chance on one or two high-priced guys that can go down for 15, particularly if they have injury rolls on a number other than 12? do you take a chance on three or four?

I'm still weeding my way through this thing, but I love it and think it will grow as strong as the 80s game. Like the 80s, I hope to play it 60+ times (although win more than 7 championships).

[MtheB]

First and foremost, not getting 600+ PAs in the 70's was not necessarily because of injuries, it was a platooning or manager decision factor--i.e. players weren't playing all the time not because they were injured but because they were being platooned, benched or whatever.
But the 70's games sees any player who didn't attain 600+ PAs as a player who was injured and not available, which in the real game, was not at all the case--i.e. the manager still had the option of using those players at any time--in the 70's game, players who are injured are not available, end of story. The game does not reflect the real reason that players did not always attain the 600+ PA plateau.

How many RH hitter years in the 70's game have 35-45 HR porential?
vs how many lefties big years?
Oops. Little bit of an unbalanced teeter-toter there.
Try to put 3-4 big LH sluggers in Yankee stadium and its just not possible.
Yet you can easily put 3-4 RH big time sluggers in a RH park....

And then look at how many of Powell's, Stargell's, Lynn's, etc best power years are included in the game--oops again.
And therein is the dilema. There was either a conscious decision to not include those years or it was a big oversight.

[Ducky]

Or there wasn't as much pure left handed power in baseball in the '70s as right handed power.

Mike

[Jablowmi]

I don't know enough to comment on the platoon situation in the 70s vs. the 80s. However, even assuming you're correct, the real injury issue is the many injury rolls on numbers other than 12, which will substantially increase a player's time off (e.g., Hank).

Re: a lefty power lineup, you don't think a lineup with several or all of the following would hit for power: Reggie, Stargell, McCovey, Lynn, B Williams, Simmons, Nettles.....

[durantjerry]

Disagree with your point about injuries not being responsible for games missed. Of course there are platoons among lesser players, but I was surprised to see the number of very good players who didnt play a full season often enough that it matters. Clemente is a perfect example. I don't think he has 600 PA's in any of his five seasons. Your saying he was platooned?

[durantjerry]

Also, just to name one, they did not "leave out" Fred Lynns power seasons. They did leave out 1975, which I think was dumb, when Lynn hit .330+ with 21 HR's(MVP & ROY). Lynn only hit more than 23 HR's twice, and 1979(39 thru nautilus training) is included and he hit 25 in 1988. Other than 1975, they included 1976-1980, which covers all of Lynns pre-1980 seasons and 1981 was a washout for him. Also, the reason Lynn missed games WAS because if injury. He was just fragile and played a reckless, albeit excellent, CF. Oops again.

[durantjerry]

Also, just to name one, they did not "leave out" Fred Lynns power seasons. They did leave out 1975, which I think was dumb, when Lynn hit .330+ with 21 HR's(MVP & ROY). Lynn only hit more than 23 HR's twice, and 1979(39 thru nautilus training) is included and he hit 25 in 1988. Other than 1975, they included 1976-1980, which covers all of Lynns pre-1980 seasons and 1981 was a washout for him. Also, the reason Lynn missed games WAS because if injury. He was just fragile and played a reckless, albeit excellent, CF. Oops again.

[JPGator]

Here are thoughts on some of the points you have raised:

1) Lack of Park Variation – Agreed (mostly). Only 7 of the available stadiums have BP Singles/Homers splits that give more than a 5% advantage to one side or the other; however, I’m not sure what TSN is supposed to do about that if the stadium numbers represent an average over the decade (and they are using all of the available real stadiums which I don’t know). Under what rationale could they selectively just pull one year or choose just a few years to get a stadium’s BP numbers from just so that we have a few heavily slanted righty or lefty parks in the mix?

2) Better inclusion of Players/Player Card Years – Agreed. Some of the omissions that have already been pointed out on the boards (Lynn 75, Sparky Lyle 77) show that some things were missed (assuming they were not intentionally left out, possibly for inclusion in a later expansion?). If you add better power years to Stargell’s card, however, the potential price increase might make playing him in an 80 mil cap league difficult.

3) Lack of Trading – This ‘complaint’ is kind of a puzzler for me. No one playing in a 70s league has played more than 30 games so far (AFAIK). No 70s league has finished (other than for beta testers). Since no one has seen how any of these players will perform over the course of a whole season, what is the impetus to trade players that no one has any baseline of understanding whether they may have a tendency to overperform or underperform their card, especially considering it’s a mystery card game?

[wavygravy2k]

I don't think injury rolls are determined by platooning or manager decision factor. Aren't there some players who are brought up from the minors in mid-season who have injury rolls on 12?

[quote:ab04036a10]Seems like a score engine programming thing is in operation here.[/quote:ab04036a10]

I don't think scores of games are being controlled in any way.