Major League Keeper League

[thisisray]

ok well if more managers do not like what has happened, then we can change the rules. we need 8 managers to say yes to a change in rules. we can make something specific towards "roster dumping" if thats what you would like.

[TefJ]

Here's my take, Smitty,

It is unlikely to change the outcome of this season, but were it someone in a division that had a better chance at the wildcard, how would people feel? It would definitely suck to lose out on the playoffs because someone in another division tanked. However, this league is more geared toward the long term, with various strategies available. That's why it's more fun and interesting than a normal league.

Personally, I think it's a viable strategy move, and since it's not against the rules, I'm ok with it. No one got mad at jehale for drafting a team that was clearly designed for 2008, ensuring he'd get a high draft pick and be a force to reckon with. Also, what about the teams that didn't add any players when rosters expanded?

I agree that we don't want to invite tankapalooza, but even should we want to change the rule, it will be difficult to figure out a good system. My idea of fielding my best team might be different than yours.

Also, this is the first season, so there might be an advantage to losing a few games, but, once we get a few seasons under our belts, the advantage to losing a few extra during a season will be very minimal.

[Rally Sally]

I don't think much harm is done by just dropping one player, but it sets a dangerous precedent. Draft position, especially for the upcoming draft, is incredibly important. Having almost assured myself of the worst set of picks, I feel that I can be impartial in this situation. Ray said:

[quote:7cf95840dc]but is one player going to affect the outcome of more than 1 or 2 meaningless games? (meaningless to others, but possibly a draft pick position for me)[/quote:7cf95840dc]

The problem is that the games aren't meaningless. If you weaken your team enough that you end up a game behind Smitty overall, then I'm sure those extra losses will mean a lot to him. I think that one of the core ideas of a keeper league is that every manager should try to win every game. If one manager breaks that and tanks, then all the others are forced to as well. In that situation, what good is "integrity" when you draft four or five spots down?

I think that by doing nothing, we are inviting a tankapalooza. Maybe not this season, but it [b:7cf95840dc]will [/b:7cf95840dc]happen if the precedent is established. My solution: we set a number, like 10%. Teams can't drop 10% below their starting payroll for that season. Payroll is set and recorded at Game 1.

I think Smitty nailed it on the head, though; if this becomes a league where people will tank for draft picks, then I wouldn't want to stick around.

[jagman2882]

just my opinion but here goes guys....

i dont think ray is intentionally trying to tank, it isnt as if he was dropping his best player on his team. sizemore was clearly not performing up to his card. and another point couldnt i be accused of tanking? i moved a bunch of my players for picks knowing that it would make my team worse, isnt that kinda the same? ray realizes that his season is lost and and this point he figured he would try some different guys (i dont think that he has ever used byrnes but i could be wrong)..and would it be any different if just benched sizemore?....

on the other hand i think there is a fine line that we could approach if say someone drops 5 studs for 5 scrubs then i think we get into jepordizing the integrety of what we have started with our keeper league....cause i will be honest i have thought of picking up my crappy guys to grab that number 1 pick from jehale :twisted:

anyways that is just what i think so gimme ur thoughts

[blsmith7]

Jag - I think if you look at Ray's comments, he was tanking and knew it. Sizemore is arguably his best player. And his numbers, while below expectations, were not horrendous, plus he is a 1 in CF. Benching a guy in SOM doesn't motivate his card to do better. He knowingly made the move anticipating it would mean more losses for his team and a better draft position. And while you have thought of doing the same, you didn't, because it is not in the spirit of the game. Also, it is different than making trades because of your team's performance. I have made a trade based on that - trading Atkins for a draft pick and Wigginton. If I were in contention, I would not have made that trade. But I made a deal that I thought could benefit me in the end. Making deals when your team is out of it is one thing, but benching one of your premier players and replacing him with another with the obvious intent of losing games is another. I am still playing the players that I think give me the best chance to win.

In response to Rally Sally, I don't think anything can be mandated or any rule changes made. Percentages can't apply because owners may choose to make trades to help them in the long run. I just think, in a league like this, we need to trust that all the other managers are doing their best to win games, and not tank them. If I can't trust [b:a02471a22f]all[/b:a02471a22f] the other managers to do that, then the integrity of the entire league is compromised in my mind. I don't think it is wrong of me to expect every owner to play the best team they have available to them for the entire season (with the obvious exception of a team clinching early and not wanting to risk injuries before the playoffs). Listen, I understand that we all want to tinker with lineups, shake things up, etc. if our team isn't performing - but I can't imagine any owner here thinking that dropping Sizemore and replacing him with Byrnes makes that team better in any way. And I don't think Ray would make that argument either.

I can vow that I will never play a lineup that I don't think will give me the best chance to win - ever (excluding the above exception). I am simply asking the same of all of you. I don't require rule changes, as a man's word is good enough for me. And, no, I am not scouring lineups looking for things like this. I just happened to stumble upon it in the transactions page and it seemed peculiar.

[nythawk129921]

This season is unique in that next seasons crop of free agents will be the deepest one we will ever have.Those owners that loaded up with players for next season will have a huge advantage over those that drafted a solid team for this season.Our teams suck but in all fairness we were more interested in the future over the present and we will get "rewarded" with high draft picks.That being said the future drafts wont have as much weight for the bottom teams because in the future 1 player will not make your team a legitimate contender(trust me I know from experience).
Tanking by any means should never be an accepted practice whether it is a regular league or a keeper league.It doesnt happen in my other keeper leagues because like I said it really doesnt give you an advantage in furure drafts because the pickings will be pretty slim with only a couple of stud cards coming out each year.
[b:ea138eda49] The only thing I would like to see different in these new keeper leagues is to have a lotto for the draft order following the initial season so that it wouldnt penalize the playoff teams and give everyone a fair chance at the top spot and no one would be upset at the possibility of one or 2 teams tanking for a higher draft position:and then every season after that it can go based upon records[/b:ea138eda49]

[nythawk129921]

another point I would like to make is that there will be some trades made during the season that will upset a few owners because some might have to sell the present to get better in the future.There is nothing wrong with this practice because MLB does the same thing .This is what makes the keeper leagues so great,a bad team can get better quickly if it has a stud or 2 that it can trade for a few future studs.As an example in 1 of my keeper leagues I traded Beckett who was awful in my hitting park to a contender for David Price and Matt LaPorta.

[TefJ]

I would get on board with a "no-tanking" rule, but I think Smitty is right that it isn't going to come down to a specific rule, but rather a code. There are so many different ways to tank without violating pretty much any rule you can make. Ray could have kept Sizemore and just benched him, for example.

I like the idea of a lottery as well, though that may cause some problems. Teams that are bad need ways to improve. No one will stick with the league if they keep losing and keep getting bad draft picks. What about a weighted system like they do in the NBA? We could give the last place team 12 chances, and the first place team 1 and draw for the best pick. I don't think anyone would tank to improve their chances by 1.5% or so. Your thoughts?

[nythawk129921]

WP-as I stated above the only draft that is really affected is the first one after the initial season because after that one the free agents or rookies arent as substantial from there on out.

[thisisray]

I am 8-1 since dropping Sizemore.