QK said: "Semp - agressive/conservative/normal has zero to do with your SPs. It only affects the frequency with which HAL will pull your RPs once the SPs have left the game."
[b:2b63887d0a]I did NOT know this!!![/b:2b63887d0a]
I have always thought, and I've been playing since this on-line game started, that the aggressive/conservative/normal RP settings had to do with when your SP's got pulled.
Wow! I'm speechless.
NLD 13 Draft thread
by MARKHUARD » Tue May 09, 2006 3:43 pm
Neither did I, Jeep. I am not sure I believe it, based merely on my 4 year personal history with SOM Online. But Qk is a Strat guru...
Semper Gumby: I believe I do understand your ire with HAL. The fact that the latest game in question was a loss in 14 innings was not my point. My point is that the game engine did EXACTLY what you wanted it do by bringing in your closer to save the game once the tying run reached base in the 8th or 9th inning and you still had a problem with it. Yet, if your SP had the lost game, you would have been irked about Wagner not getting called in to pitch with the game on the line.
I think Ninersphan should get in touch with Bernie. They can set up NLD 14 so that all Cleveland wins are 1-0 complete game gems. SG to supply the bouncy cheerleader shots after each win. :wink: :D
Semper Gumby: I believe I do understand your ire with HAL. The fact that the latest game in question was a loss in 14 innings was not my point. My point is that the game engine did EXACTLY what you wanted it do by bringing in your closer to save the game once the tying run reached base in the 8th or 9th inning and you still had a problem with it. Yet, if your SP had the lost game, you would have been irked about Wagner not getting called in to pitch with the game on the line.
I think Ninersphan should get in touch with Bernie. They can set up NLD 14 so that all Cleveland wins are 1-0 complete game gems. SG to supply the bouncy cheerleader shots after each win. :wink: :D
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by Semper Gumby » Tue May 09, 2006 3:55 pm
Beach,
I don't recall complaining about the lack of relief - just too much relief. :D
For whatever reason or season, I see more relief than I desire or program my team to expect.
As for bringing Wagner aboard to pitch in the 8th inning, I just want to know what triggered the change since Kerry Wood clearly outpitched Kenny Rogers at that point in the game but HAL pulled Wood and not Rogers (both S6 rated pitchers).
If I get a chance, I may map out my pitching changes and see where the trigger is found. It seems strange that you can't force HAL to pitch Pedro a little longer ... I want his arm to fall off! :x
Perhaps I should be happy that Wagner leads the league in finishing games - I surely didn't intend him to do so unless he would get the save.
Otherwise, I did complain in 2003 about Edmonds going cold around 99 games (with 50 HRs) despite 4 Sheas in the league (to include his home park). :wink:
I don't recall complaining about the lack of relief - just too much relief. :D
For whatever reason or season, I see more relief than I desire or program my team to expect.
As for bringing Wagner aboard to pitch in the 8th inning, I just want to know what triggered the change since Kerry Wood clearly outpitched Kenny Rogers at that point in the game but HAL pulled Wood and not Rogers (both S6 rated pitchers).
If I get a chance, I may map out my pitching changes and see where the trigger is found. It seems strange that you can't force HAL to pitch Pedro a little longer ... I want his arm to fall off! :x
Perhaps I should be happy that Wagner leads the league in finishing games - I surely didn't intend him to do so unless he would get the save.
Otherwise, I did complain in 2003 about Edmonds going cold around 99 games (with 50 HRs) despite 4 Sheas in the league (to include his home park). :wink:
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by MARKHUARD » Tue May 09, 2006 4:17 pm
True that. :D
I think we all can agree that the normalization debate was good for both players and management and led to an improved transparency. Hopefully, this year's pitching scrutiny ends up leading Bernie and staff to a like examination of the game and clarification of precisely what is going on in game logic.
I think we all can agree that the normalization debate was good for both players and management and led to an improved transparency. Hopefully, this year's pitching scrutiny ends up leading Bernie and staff to a like examination of the game and clarification of precisely what is going on in game logic.
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by Jeepdriver » Tue May 09, 2006 6:35 pm
I started a thread over on the main forum titled "I Did Not Know This". Feel free to check it out, and QK, could you expand on this further, preferably on the other thread. Thanks.
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by qksilver69 » Tue May 09, 2006 7:21 pm
Guys - one caveat - SOM is not the most transparent programming out there, and being behind the TSN shell does not help this. My understanding of the relief settings not affecting SPs being pulled is based on reading the manual 4 years ago which detailed what each CD-ROM setting would do, and I could be remembering that incorrectly, but I will say that after I read the CD-ROM and understood the settings better, HAL acts very much like I expect it to. The only things I still hate/can't figure out are:
1) Why SPs seem to be pulled earlier than they should be (like after 4 innings when they're throwing a 2-hit shutout). I see this more in TSN then CD-ROM, and my guess is that TSN's changes last year have HAL overemphasize some parts of the code.
2) Injury substitutions. This one is relatively easy - HAL looks mostly at a) primary position (i.e. bench player who has that position listed 1st on their card), and b) OPS. Advanced HAL ignores defensive factors when subbing. In the CD-ROM, using the SuperHal substitutions & depth chart improves this issue tremendously. If we had this interface, would eliminate a lot of problems. My lineups, since I use a lot of platoons, increase a lot in efficiency when I tried this once a few months ago on the CD.
1) Why SPs seem to be pulled earlier than they should be (like after 4 innings when they're throwing a 2-hit shutout). I see this more in TSN then CD-ROM, and my guess is that TSN's changes last year have HAL overemphasize some parts of the code.
2) Injury substitutions. This one is relatively easy - HAL looks mostly at a) primary position (i.e. bench player who has that position listed 1st on their card), and b) OPS. Advanced HAL ignores defensive factors when subbing. In the CD-ROM, using the SuperHal substitutions & depth chart improves this issue tremendously. If we had this interface, would eliminate a lot of problems. My lineups, since I use a lot of platoons, increase a lot in efficiency when I tried this once a few months ago on the CD.
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by qksilver69 » Tue May 09, 2006 9:14 pm
From the discussion on the main page, FYI...
[quote:21a0f5489c]Guys - will share where I'm coming from. I read the manual back in '02 when I 1st got the CD-ROM. Not sure I have it now, but the gist of what I remember is that the 'pen setting was meant to control exactly that - the 'pen & not the starters. The Aggressive 'pen settings were meant to enable the manager to "LaRussa" the pen, meaning bring a different situational arm in, so the code there overemphasizes hitter matchups.
That said, I should probably backpedal from my hyperbole above which says the 'pen settings have zero to do with pulling starters. I should have said it has zero to do with considering them tired. The manual indicated that Quick Hook was the way to get SPs out of a game earlier, and I firmly believe that is the case.
What Cristano may have referred to is that on Aggressive, if the matchup is unfavorable to the SP, then HAL may reach for an RP quicker & therefore it would impact the SP coming out, so in that sense it's true that there's an impact.
To clarify the context of my post which Jeep quoted here, we were having a discussion about HAL pulling an SP when the settings are on Conservative for pen (i.e. the mgr in question was trying to get as much out of his SPs as possible) and I stick to my belief that the Conservative settings don't impact the SP in that scenario, it would only impact an RP who was already in the game & leave him in vs. a hitter that was a potentially poorer matchup in order to get more innings out of the current RP & not blow the 'pen.
[/quote:21a0f5489c]
[quote:21a0f5489c]Guys - will share where I'm coming from. I read the manual back in '02 when I 1st got the CD-ROM. Not sure I have it now, but the gist of what I remember is that the 'pen setting was meant to control exactly that - the 'pen & not the starters. The Aggressive 'pen settings were meant to enable the manager to "LaRussa" the pen, meaning bring a different situational arm in, so the code there overemphasizes hitter matchups.
That said, I should probably backpedal from my hyperbole above which says the 'pen settings have zero to do with pulling starters. I should have said it has zero to do with considering them tired. The manual indicated that Quick Hook was the way to get SPs out of a game earlier, and I firmly believe that is the case.
What Cristano may have referred to is that on Aggressive, if the matchup is unfavorable to the SP, then HAL may reach for an RP quicker & therefore it would impact the SP coming out, so in that sense it's true that there's an impact.
To clarify the context of my post which Jeep quoted here, we were having a discussion about HAL pulling an SP when the settings are on Conservative for pen (i.e. the mgr in question was trying to get as much out of his SPs as possible) and I stick to my belief that the Conservative settings don't impact the SP in that scenario, it would only impact an RP who was already in the game & leave him in vs. a hitter that was a potentially poorer matchup in order to get more innings out of the current RP & not blow the 'pen.
[/quote:21a0f5489c]
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by Semper Gumby » Wed May 10, 2006 5:39 pm
I'll get back to my ire
Slow hook should mean just that, i.e., the starters stays in the game (override HAL's logic to remove him before POW is reached) for a measured amount of time.
If I want my starter to pitch 8 or 9 innings, then that is my problem if HAL refuses to pull him.
Given my settings, I suspect that HAL would have pulled Pedro in the 4th inning vice the 6th inning is some games.
While my record sucks now (I had been at or above .500) here, I am going gang buster in the 80s using a very conservative approach to pitching.
Slow hook should mean just that, i.e., the starters stays in the game (override HAL's logic to remove him before POW is reached) for a measured amount of time.
If I want my starter to pitch 8 or 9 innings, then that is my problem if HAL refuses to pull him.
Given my settings, I suspect that HAL would have pulled Pedro in the 4th inning vice the 6th inning is some games.
While my record sucks now (I had been at or above .500) here, I am going gang buster in the 80s using a very conservative approach to pitching.
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by joethejet » Wed May 10, 2006 6:18 pm
Semp,
[quote:618868e8eb="joethejet"]As for why Rogers kept going, he had a low pitch count, never got tired, and wasn't really in trouble until the 11th when he retired Everett and Lofton with two on. Since it was a tie game, he just kept going. I don't know what the settings are for him, but those would appear to be "slow hook", but not necessarily.
[/quote:618868e8eb]
That's why. Do you not believe me? If not, why do you keep asking the same question. The answer is obvious and you're being hard headed about this particular situation.
I'm not saying you don't have a point, but this ISN'T an example. Wagner coming in is completely explainable and could even be considered desirable. Yeesh!
Jet
[quote:618868e8eb="joethejet"]As for why Rogers kept going, he had a low pitch count, never got tired, and wasn't really in trouble until the 11th when he retired Everett and Lofton with two on. Since it was a tie game, he just kept going. I don't know what the settings are for him, but those would appear to be "slow hook", but not necessarily.
[/quote:618868e8eb]
That's why. Do you not believe me? If not, why do you keep asking the same question. The answer is obvious and you're being hard headed about this particular situation.
I'm not saying you don't have a point, but this ISN'T an example. Wagner coming in is completely explainable and could even be considered desirable. Yeesh!
Jet
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