Hi guys,
Sorry for the delay, but from a commish standpoint I was concerned about the competitiveness of the last deal which was posted on the transactions thread.
I am giving the 2 parties involved the choice to proceed with the deal as is, update it, or scuttle it. I felt it was lopsided enough to warrant some extra time to deal with it, and so we're giving it a few hours more, and I appreciate the help of a few owners I polled to get their opinions as well.
Draft will resume @ 11am Pacific time either way. Thanks for your understanding.
Dave
Hard-Core Keeper League
draft on hold til 11am or so
by qksilver69 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 10:59 am
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by cummings2 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:06 pm
OK, I will abide and dea with Stoney in a sec.
I do have a little bitsy of a problem with this generalized perception that the deal is so overwhelmingly out of balance that it warrants league intervention and that the entire league is feeling it should be added on.
I got contacted about Napoli and made it very clear, I want prospects.
This is what I got:
1st offer From QkSilver:
Napoli for Andre Ethier and a 2nd round prospect pick.
---Mind you Ethier is 29 -Not a prospect by any means, can't hit lefties, is injury prone and would come in a position were I already have Markakis who is not injury prone, more balanced, better defender and younger.
2nd offer from Ninershpan:
Matt Dominguez, Wilmer Flores and a 3rd round prospect pick for Flores.
--- Much better offer than the Eitheir one, especially snce its offering what I am asking for: Prospects. Problem is I have 3Bs up the wazoo and and I'm not too thrilled about either prospect. -Not trying to be mean but... tis be true.
3rd offer, the one I took:
From everything I am reading on Rosaro the kid is one of the top catchers coming into the majors. Power and good/above average defensive skills. This is what I have read. Niese, I actually saw pitch and I was realy into the kid, both prospects are young and developed enough where I think they should pay dividends soon enough.
Plus a second round prospect draft pick s I get the chance of three top prospects for Napoli and whomever would be chosen with the 20th pick.
I understand your perception but I completely disagree with the trade being so off balance that the Entire League is up in arms asking for a redo but afraid o saying so to avoid a precedent.
If ya'll really think the trade was that off you should have offered more than injured players that project lower than the ones I got with this deal.
That being said.
I will play nice and deal with Stoney on a revision.
C2
I do have a little bitsy of a problem with this generalized perception that the deal is so overwhelmingly out of balance that it warrants league intervention and that the entire league is feeling it should be added on.
I got contacted about Napoli and made it very clear, I want prospects.
This is what I got:
1st offer From QkSilver:
Napoli for Andre Ethier and a 2nd round prospect pick.
---Mind you Ethier is 29 -Not a prospect by any means, can't hit lefties, is injury prone and would come in a position were I already have Markakis who is not injury prone, more balanced, better defender and younger.
2nd offer from Ninershpan:
Matt Dominguez, Wilmer Flores and a 3rd round prospect pick for Flores.
--- Much better offer than the Eitheir one, especially snce its offering what I am asking for: Prospects. Problem is I have 3Bs up the wazoo and and I'm not too thrilled about either prospect. -Not trying to be mean but... tis be true.
3rd offer, the one I took:
From everything I am reading on Rosaro the kid is one of the top catchers coming into the majors. Power and good/above average defensive skills. This is what I have read. Niese, I actually saw pitch and I was realy into the kid, both prospects are young and developed enough where I think they should pay dividends soon enough.
Plus a second round prospect draft pick s I get the chance of three top prospects for Napoli and whomever would be chosen with the 20th pick.
I understand your perception but I completely disagree with the trade being so off balance that the Entire League is up in arms asking for a redo but afraid o saying so to avoid a precedent.
If ya'll really think the trade was that off you should have offered more than injured players that project lower than the ones I got with this deal.
That being said.
I will play nice and deal with Stoney on a revision.
C2
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by Stoney18 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:15 pm
I'll add a little to what Chuck said.
Niese - of all SP over 150 innings he was 14th in xFIP and 16th in SIERA. Both indiciators of expected future performance based on pitcher controlled skills.
Only 25.
Rosario - One of the first with 2012 prospect lists has him at 52. Same spot as Grandal and the 3rd C prospect assuming Montero is DH only. Only 22 and plays in Coors. Like Chuck said, good D and power.
Chuck wanted prospects and I want to compete this season. We both got what we wanted.
Niese - of all SP over 150 innings he was 14th in xFIP and 16th in SIERA. Both indiciators of expected future performance based on pitcher controlled skills.
Only 25.
Rosario - One of the first with 2012 prospect lists has him at 52. Same spot as Grandal and the 3rd C prospect assuming Montero is DH only. Only 22 and plays in Coors. Like Chuck said, good D and power.
Chuck wanted prospects and I want to compete this season. We both got what we wanted.
Last edited by Stoney18 on Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by kaviksdad » Wed Jan 04, 2012 12:49 pm
Just a view from the peanut gallery -
I'm fine with either the original deal or the revised deal. And as we're normally not privy to all the discussion/offers that go on between other managers I appreciate Chuck's explanation and it's well put. Given the same situation I might make the same deal. The big issue to me is that Napoli will have a dominant card THIS year, and maybe one of the top power cards in the set. Napoli is a fine player, but his getting a top card really is a fluke based on a career year, and I don't see him repeating it. He may come close, but the stars have to align again. So for the short term there's a big advantage to Stoney. But long term it may turn out that Chuck gets the better end of the deal. Who's to say? We're all moving from contending to rebuilding to contending again - and ship off established players for kids who may or may not pan out. This seems to be just another example of that.
I'm fine with either the original deal or the revised deal. And as we're normally not privy to all the discussion/offers that go on between other managers I appreciate Chuck's explanation and it's well put. Given the same situation I might make the same deal. The big issue to me is that Napoli will have a dominant card THIS year, and maybe one of the top power cards in the set. Napoli is a fine player, but his getting a top card really is a fluke based on a career year, and I don't see him repeating it. He may come close, but the stars have to align again. So for the short term there's a big advantage to Stoney. But long term it may turn out that Chuck gets the better end of the deal. Who's to say? We're all moving from contending to rebuilding to contending again - and ship off established players for kids who may or may not pan out. This seems to be just another example of that.
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by qksilver69 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:02 pm
Niese: minor leagues 1.34 WHIP over 557 IP, MLB 1.46 WHIP over 370 IP. Those are not small sample sizes folks, and a 1.40 WHIP LH SP has zero value in this kind of league, sorry to say.
Rosario: .741 OPS last season in Tulsa, .765 OPS overall in roughly 1600 PAs in the minors. He has upside but he's not elite. He will be lucky to come close to Napoli's 3-year card value (this year plus 2 more) over his entire career. "Plays in Coors" - do you guys not understand that SOM compensates for park effects? Should have no bearing on this conversation. In fact, the opposite - most Coors hitters underperform their cards from in TSN from what I have seen.
Going back to the bigger picture, I don't intend to intervene in every deal that may be perceived as lopsided - this is the 1st time in 6 years that this issue has come up. In the end, I want HCKL to remain highly competitive, with owners that are educated and engaged and contribute to the overall health of the league. I hope you all keep that goal in mind as we move forward.
Rosario: .741 OPS last season in Tulsa, .765 OPS overall in roughly 1600 PAs in the minors. He has upside but he's not elite. He will be lucky to come close to Napoli's 3-year card value (this year plus 2 more) over his entire career. "Plays in Coors" - do you guys not understand that SOM compensates for park effects? Should have no bearing on this conversation. In fact, the opposite - most Coors hitters underperform their cards from in TSN from what I have seen.
Going back to the bigger picture, I don't intend to intervene in every deal that may be perceived as lopsided - this is the 1st time in 6 years that this issue has come up. In the end, I want HCKL to remain highly competitive, with owners that are educated and engaged and contribute to the overall health of the league. I hope you all keep that goal in mind as we move forward.
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by cummings2 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:37 pm
I should add by the way, that the orignal offer I got was Ethier for Ike Davis.... If we are going to argue value and all of the stuff above how can we go from Ethier=Ike Davis to Ethier + 2nd rd prospect = Napoli.
This is all bull-doo-doo.
And ya'll know it is.
C2
This is all bull-doo-doo.
And ya'll know it is.
C2
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by cummings2 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:53 pm
Okey fellas, this is from an email I recieved from Dave, I bring this up because I don't like this he said, she said workings, if there is a problem get it out in the open, deal with it an then move on. No highschool stuff for me.
Here's the fragment:
"I understand you have personal stuff going on which is much more important than this league, I get that and I want to support you in that, you're a great guy. But if you don't have time to make counter-offers in order to get the best deal for your team, maybe we should reconsider our earlier conversation. I'm perfectly open to a temporary solution if you want to come back to the fold at some point.
One more thing Chuck - I have to keep league competitiveness in mind when I look at these issues. I look at your team and I see a very solid contender this year. You have decent SPs, you have a solid pen, and you have an offense where the only hole is OF. You sold Rasmus at .50 on the dollar, if that. You say you want prospects - I would have given up an FA pick & a prospect pick for Rasmus, easy, or a top SP prospect like Skaggs. But you never let people know he was on the market.
And you are dealing Napoli for no present value, degrading what is a contending team for no apparent reason. I can't let an owner with a contending team punt like that, it hurts the league"
***The earlier conversation and temporary solution is that of findng another manager to take over my team.
I am NOT ounting my team, and I disagree with the notion that it is a contender, when I took the team bac from Casey it was a mess, no farm, no top talent, nothing, I have been slowly rebuilding but I am tired of always having half baked teams with a few top cards and no chance of winning that is why the last season and this one I have been dealing away cards like Cano and Napoli, etc.
If the general perception is that I am hurting the league and that I am punting my team then no worries fellas, I will take a step back, bow out and go about my business but to be honest I think this nonsense.
If the league is going to be polled on how lopsided a deal was then I think the league should be polled on if I am better off out of the league.
If you guys really feel if I am punting my team and hurting the league then... well, my sincere apologies. It was NOT my intention at all.
Regardless we are all cool. This is just a game and I for one don't intend to sour my days on this.
C2
Here's the fragment:
"I understand you have personal stuff going on which is much more important than this league, I get that and I want to support you in that, you're a great guy. But if you don't have time to make counter-offers in order to get the best deal for your team, maybe we should reconsider our earlier conversation. I'm perfectly open to a temporary solution if you want to come back to the fold at some point.
One more thing Chuck - I have to keep league competitiveness in mind when I look at these issues. I look at your team and I see a very solid contender this year. You have decent SPs, you have a solid pen, and you have an offense where the only hole is OF. You sold Rasmus at .50 on the dollar, if that. You say you want prospects - I would have given up an FA pick & a prospect pick for Rasmus, easy, or a top SP prospect like Skaggs. But you never let people know he was on the market.
And you are dealing Napoli for no present value, degrading what is a contending team for no apparent reason. I can't let an owner with a contending team punt like that, it hurts the league"
***The earlier conversation and temporary solution is that of findng another manager to take over my team.
I am NOT ounting my team, and I disagree with the notion that it is a contender, when I took the team bac from Casey it was a mess, no farm, no top talent, nothing, I have been slowly rebuilding but I am tired of always having half baked teams with a few top cards and no chance of winning that is why the last season and this one I have been dealing away cards like Cano and Napoli, etc.
If the general perception is that I am hurting the league and that I am punting my team then no worries fellas, I will take a step back, bow out and go about my business but to be honest I think this nonsense.
If the league is going to be polled on how lopsided a deal was then I think the league should be polled on if I am better off out of the league.
If you guys really feel if I am punting my team and hurting the league then... well, my sincere apologies. It was NOT my intention at all.
Regardless we are all cool. This is just a game and I for one don't intend to sour my days on this.
C2
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by cummings2 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 1:58 pm
Okey dokey, well, I guess I am out, this is the response I got from saying I dn't think I can contend this season:
"Chuck, have you even paid attention to range ratings this year? You have 2 2Bs with 2-range and above-average offense in Kendrick and Kinsler. You have a SS with above-average offense & 1 range, in Aybar for chrissakes. You have a very good 1B (Fielder), DH (Napoli), and 3B (Young). The only position areas you are weak are OF, where you have Gardner who is playable and Markakis who sucks on O but who has 1 range. The only thing you needed to contend were 1 or 2 OFs, period. If you don't see that, you don't belong here"
*** It should be pointed out that the reason why the team is is such shape is because of the very deals that I am now being told are hurting the league and seem to be "punting" my team.
Clearly then, I don't belong in this league.
Will miss ya fellas!
Enjoy the season.
C2
"Chuck, have you even paid attention to range ratings this year? You have 2 2Bs with 2-range and above-average offense in Kendrick and Kinsler. You have a SS with above-average offense & 1 range, in Aybar for chrissakes. You have a very good 1B (Fielder), DH (Napoli), and 3B (Young). The only position areas you are weak are OF, where you have Gardner who is playable and Markakis who sucks on O but who has 1 range. The only thing you needed to contend were 1 or 2 OFs, period. If you don't see that, you don't belong here"
*** It should be pointed out that the reason why the team is is such shape is because of the very deals that I am now being told are hurting the league and seem to be "punting" my team.
Clearly then, I don't belong in this league.
Will miss ya fellas!
Enjoy the season.
C2
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Chuck's team
by qksilver69 » Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:28 pm
C: Avila, probably best C card in the set along with Napoli likely 8M card
1B: Davis - injury roll but nice card vs RHP, probably 5-6M card
1B: Fielder - better than last year version, 7-8M card
C/DH: Napoli (prior to trade), likely 9-10M card
2B: Kendrick or Kinsler, both 2 range, Kendrick similar to Prado last year, 6M card, Kinsler less BA but more OB & pop, likely 6.5M card.
3B: Young, .854 OPS compares to Wright, likely 6-7M card
LF: Gardner, .345 OB, 1 range, not the best but still playable in a down year for OB/offense, great speed for bottom of lineup, 4-5M card
CF: Bourjos low OB but surprising pop with .765 OPS, with 1 range very playable, 5-6M card
RF: Markakis - 1 range on D but no offense, spot in most in need of an upgrade on this team, D sub in this set
Starting lineup value: 55-60M, counting only 1 of the 2 2Bs, using the other for trade bait.
SPs: Kennedy, Beachy, Garza, Jurrjens, Wilson, LeCure if he gets an SP card. Kennedy a legit stud, rest in the $4-5M range and will compete well with nice D behind them. Roster value: $25-30M
RPs: very strong with Kimbrel, Bailey, Romo, LeCure, just needs a LH or 2, of which there are several. Roster value: $18-20M
My estimate on roster value for this team without counting bench is minimum $100M. That's with 18 players, and is likely conservative. That kind of analysis is the minimum I expect from owners in this league, to be able to tell whether you should contend or not. AFD won a title last year starting from a similar place. I appreciate Chuck's time in the league and will begin search for a replacement now.
In the meantime I will bring on a temp owner to manage his team through the rest of FAs. Sorry for the drama.
Also, I am deleting Chuck's last FA pick of Liddi. I will let the temp owner make a pick more in line with the logic of a contending team.
1B: Davis - injury roll but nice card vs RHP, probably 5-6M card
1B: Fielder - better than last year version, 7-8M card
C/DH: Napoli (prior to trade), likely 9-10M card
2B: Kendrick or Kinsler, both 2 range, Kendrick similar to Prado last year, 6M card, Kinsler less BA but more OB & pop, likely 6.5M card.
3B: Young, .854 OPS compares to Wright, likely 6-7M card
LF: Gardner, .345 OB, 1 range, not the best but still playable in a down year for OB/offense, great speed for bottom of lineup, 4-5M card
CF: Bourjos low OB but surprising pop with .765 OPS, with 1 range very playable, 5-6M card
RF: Markakis - 1 range on D but no offense, spot in most in need of an upgrade on this team, D sub in this set
Starting lineup value: 55-60M, counting only 1 of the 2 2Bs, using the other for trade bait.
SPs: Kennedy, Beachy, Garza, Jurrjens, Wilson, LeCure if he gets an SP card. Kennedy a legit stud, rest in the $4-5M range and will compete well with nice D behind them. Roster value: $25-30M
RPs: very strong with Kimbrel, Bailey, Romo, LeCure, just needs a LH or 2, of which there are several. Roster value: $18-20M
My estimate on roster value for this team without counting bench is minimum $100M. That's with 18 players, and is likely conservative. That kind of analysis is the minimum I expect from owners in this league, to be able to tell whether you should contend or not. AFD won a title last year starting from a similar place. I appreciate Chuck's time in the league and will begin search for a replacement now.
In the meantime I will bring on a temp owner to manage his team through the rest of FAs. Sorry for the drama.
Also, I am deleting Chuck's last FA pick of Liddi. I will let the temp owner make a pick more in line with the logic of a contending team.
Last edited by qksilver69 on Wed Jan 04, 2012 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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