Closer Rule

[cummings2]

This is what is in the CD-Rom help file in re: to when the closer rule comes into play:

[quote:81afdfcbc4]A closing situation occurs when the defensive team has the lead and the tying or winning run is on base or at the plate in the 9th inning or later.[/quote:81afdfcbc4]

In another site that posts SOM rules this is what is written about the closer rule ([url=http://www.rsbl.org/somrules.htm]SOM Rules[/url])

[quote:81afdfcbc4]28.2 Closer endurance is the duration, measured in number of outs, a pitcher can maintain his effectiveness in closer situations. In Strat-O-Matic, a "closer situation" is defined differently than a big-league save opportunity. Your pitcher will be in a "closer situation" whenever you have the lead in the 9th inning or later and the tying run is on base or at bat.[/quote:81afdfcbc4]


Therefore there is no way that a setup man could become fatigued [u:81afdfcbc4][i:81afdfcbc4]due to a lack of C rating[/i:81afdfcbc4][/u:81afdfcbc4] if he pitches [i:81afdfcbc4]before[/i:81afdfcbc4] the 9th inning, even if by MLB standards the game would qualify as a save, right?

However, if that is the case then how can it be that this situation comes up (which is not that uncommon in my short SOM-OL experience)

[url=http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/2006/league/boxscore.html?group_id=2862&g_id=440][u:81afdfcbc4]Brad Thompson gets a save going 3 innings[/u:81afdfcbc4][/url]

The tying run was never either on base nor at the plate in the 9th inning.

If however, the closer rule as it is applied OL would come into effect more along the lines of an MLB save then wouldn't it make more sense to have set-up men with a C rating, even if the C is 0?

Any thoughts on this?

[Mean Dean]

I'm not sure what you're getting at here; you seem to be confusing several different things. You can get a save without it ever being a SOM closer situation at all. Or, it can become a closer situation, but the pitcher never gives up a hit or walk; as long as he has a C0 or better, then as long as he gives nothing up, he won't get fatigued. Or, it can become a closer situation, the pitcher can indeed get fatigued, and he can still successfully close out the game. All that being fatigued means is that he's more likely to give up hits/walks; it doesn't mean he literally can't get anyone out.

This here is the first of those cases. Thompson's C rating was never a factor to begin with, since the tying or winning run never came to the plate in the 9th inning.

[i:e65dd68a70]Had[/i:e65dd68a70] the tying or winning run come to bat in the 9th, then by Rule 28.33...
[quote:e65dd68a70]If the pitcher begins his appearance with his regular POW and the game becomes a closer situation, he changes to his closer endurance rating. At that time, reduce his closer endurance by the number of outs he has already recorded. This number cannot be reduced to lower than 0, unless the pitcher's closer endurance is "N".[/quote:e65dd68a70]
...as a C0, Thompson would have gotten fatigued with the next hit/walk he gave up after that. He still easily could have closed out the game, though; either by simply not giving up that next hit/walk, or by getting through the inning despite his fatigue.

[cummings2]

Thanks Dean :D

You are right I am (was now) confusing a save situation with a closer situation.

The effects of fatigue I've gotten a bit of a grip on but thanks for the explanation, certainly helps.

There are several points where this leads me to think about. For example, if the C rating only comes into play in the 9th inning:

You lead by one run and your closer is an R1 C6

he could pitch the 8th inning -No closer rule, just the R1. No fatigue, all cool

Then pitch the 9th inning. The first batter comes up and it automatically becomes a closer situation, right? then, if I understand the rules properly, you subtract to the C rating the number of outs the pitcher has already recorded. so in this case, having recorded 3 outs in the 8th. Your closer turns from a C6 to a C3. Stll good enough to save the game for you.

However an R2 C6 -in the same situation, leading by one run- comes into pitch in the 7th inning, goes 7 & 8. By the time the first batter comes up in the 9th he becomes fatigued right away, right?

-With the understanding that we have that even while fatigued a pitcher can still record outs-

I am trying to understand some of these bullpen issues Dean, especially since I noticed I am going by some settings/ logic essentially "going under the assumption of..." Given what I've been told, read, etc. but not quite clear about some of these things I have been assuming.

One of the things I'm a bit unclear about some specifics are in re: to setup & closer situations.

You are right, I have been confusing save and closer. Thanks a lot for that. Really helps :D

[Mean Dean]

[quote:3a9e4d37c1]You lead by one run and your closer is an R1 C6

he could pitch the 8th inning -No closer rule, just the R1. No fatigue, all cool

Then pitch the 9th inning. The first batter comes up and it automatically becomes a closer situation, right? then, if I understand the rules properly, you subtract to the C rating the number of outs the pitcher has already recorded. so in this case, having recorded 3 outs in the 8th. Your closer turns from a C6 to a C3. Stll good enough to save the game for you.[/quote:3a9e4d37c1]
Exactly.

[quote:3a9e4d37c1]However an R2 C6 -in the same situation, leading by one run- comes into pitch in the 7th inning, goes 7 & 8. By the time the first batter comes up in the 9th he becomes fatigued right away, right? [/quote:3a9e4d37c1]
No, what happens is that his closer rating becomes 0. That means that [i:3a9e4d37c1]if[/i:3a9e4d37c1] he gives up a hit/walk, he will be fatigued. The only time he becomes fatigued as soon as it becomes a closer situation is if his closer rating is N.

(Obviously, one thing this implies is that it helps to, y'know, be good. If the guy is just a shutdown pitcher in general, it becomes more likely that he won't ever give up the fatal hit/walk, or that if he does, he can get through the inning anyway. Thus, it becomes plausible that a C6 as good as [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/g/gagneer01.shtml]Eric Gagne[/url] '03 can go more than two innings, or that a C0 as good as [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/s/soriara01.shtml]Rafael Soriano[/url] '03 can be a good closer. Of course, doing such things could easily backfire if the batter happens to hit the fatigued results, or if the game goes extra innings, forcing you to either stick with a very tired closer or to bring in a non-closer.)

[cummings2]

Cool, got the C0 thingie then. Thanks Dean. 8)