What Barry Bonds Should Do After #754 (o/t)

[keyzick]

[quote:9a6f04e9c4]IMHO the man to hate here is Bud Selig, not Barry Bonds. Stop booing him every time he comes up. Stand up and let Selig have it.
[/quote:9a6f04e9c4]

Although I typically find visick's opinions comparable to my own, I have to disagree (kind of).

Mike Greenberg (of ESPN Mike & Mike in the Morning) made a great point this morning about the introduction of the wildcard and revenue sharing under his reign. I think that's gone a lot farther to re-invigorate baseball than the whole steroids issue is hurting it. That being said, he and the rest of baseball stuck their heads in the sand way back when the hint of steroid-use first arose. Sort of like people applauding the NFL's steroid policy and it's multiple random tests...does anyone seriously believe the builds on some of these guys are natural??

Personally, I don't like what the steroid era has done to the record books, but I hate Bonds based on my perception of him as a person, all the interviews I've seen with him, quotes, etc..., not based on his steroid use. I think I've used that as a justification for my stance on him, rather than being the actual foundation.

I think Giambi had it right when he said all of baseball should apologize. Everyone of them is to blame, not just Bonds/Canseco/McGwire/Giambi. They're just the posterchildren/whipping boys for the controversy.

[CHARLESBELL]

Bonds was never going to be popular outside his home town fans, no matter how good he was or how clean he was. Even the pre-steriods era Bonds was hated by enough of the Hall voting press to cloud his possible entry to the HOF. Whether he cares about any of that I don't know. He speaks his mind and pulls no punches, or he doesn't speak at all. A class act only if your heroes are George Steinbrenner or Donald Trump.

I have been on the fence about Bonds, but finally decided where I fall on this one. The issues:

1) Bonds is hated by a lot of the press and fans. Hated is a harsh word, but in his case it fits. He largely deserves it. Being hated doesn't change what you accomplish on the field. There are great ball players in the HOF who were not very good human beings. Few fans would want to invalidate all of their records.

2) Did Bonds use performance enhancing drugs? Not proven, but the evidence that he did is pretty convincing. My personal opinion is that he did.

2a) Were the drugs he used against baseball rules at the time he used them? The evidence here is not so overwhelming. We can frown on players who used them, and they can try to hide the fact that they did because they know it isn't considered "fair", but was against the rules at the time? Best I can determine is that they were not. At worst I believe that it will be impossible to determine one way or the other. While I may not like what Bonds and other players did, I can't see that he actually violated any baseball rules.

2b) Were the drugs he used illegal or illegally obtained? Don't know for sure, but even if they were, now you are talking about a legal issue, subject to fines and suspensions and legal action, not baseball performance on the field. I can't recall a single baseball player that has ever had his records tainted or challenged due only to illegal or even criminal behavior. Pete Rose does not have an asterisk after his career hits title.

2c) Even if Bonds didn't actually break baseball rules, didn't he bend the heck out of them? My opinion is yes he did. Ballplayers will take every edge they can get, and will bend rules when they can. However, there are no close comparisons of this scope to use here that apply. The closest I can think of is Gaylord Perry's use of the spitball, which was truly against the rules. He was caught and punished several times, and admired by most for all the times he got away with it. Perry is in the HOF and his statistics have not been challenged.

3) But this is different, isn't it? It's the all time homerun title! Certainly it's different, from an emotional perspective. We want a hero to hold that honor. We want someone universally admired, beyond reproach, or even a likable rogue. Certainly it's different, he enhanced his performance by taking drugs. But players have always done that using legal and unrestricted substances, from caffeine and vitamins on up, to illegal substances such as greenies. Did Babe Ruth use such legal and illegal means? Is there an asterisk by his record?

4) Did Bonds "cheat"? That's a subjective assessment we'll all have to make individually. I'm not going to condemn his career because he is not a likable person. I'm not going to condemn his career because he bent the rules without enough evidence that he actually broke any, and I'm not condemning his record because he wasn't a hero enough to take the high road.

I don't respect Barry Bonds. I wanted him to be a better person.

But when he breaks the record I'll acknowledge his right to the title of all time homerun leader.

[BRIANSIELSKI]

[quote:9007c5be25]He has been tested to the best of my knowledge many times and come up clean.
[/quote:9007c5be25]

... we have to face the real science and econmics here. The chemists make more money coming out with undetectable steroids faster than the $60,000/yr chemist to try to find them.

Steroids are STILL in the game, including all those poster/whipping boys.


[quote:9007c5be25]Personally, I don't like what the steroid era has done to the record books, but I hate Bonds based on my perception of him as a person, all the interviews I've seen with him, quotes, etc..., [/quote:9007c5be25]

Real nice point ... Bonds* made some pretty racist remarks about Babe Ruth ... which shocked me into what type of man Bonds* really is.



[quote:9007c5be25]Pete Rose does not have an asterisk after his career hits title. [/quote:9007c5be25]

Apples and Oranges. Pete Rose does have an asterisk on his name ... but only when you look at his managerial record. His hit total was not chemically enhanced. Pete Rose* the manager is very different than Pete Rose the hitter.

[visick]

[quote:cc6391dce6]I think Giambi had it right when he said all of baseball should apologize. Everyone of them is to blame, not just Bonds/Canseco/McGwire/Giambi. They're just the posterchildren/whipping boys for the controversy. [/quote:cc6391dce6]


Well said k... :wink:

[geekor]

[quote:2db6db52b5]Did Bonds use performance enhancing drugs? Not proven....[/quote:2db6db52b5]

Well 2 parts to all the people who say this wasn't proven.

1) He used (using?) HGH crap which is pretty much undetectable, so no one, I mean no one, will get caught if they are using the designer expensive stuff. Only those who use the cheap easy to get stuff get caught. That stands today Mr. Giambi

2) He admitted, albeit to a grand jury that no one was ever supposed to find out about, that he took the stuff. Him claiming ignorance no one really believes, but he admitted in court that he did.

So really what's left to prove?

[quote:2db6db52b5]Face facts, the guy was the best player in the game for a long time before roids ever entered the picture.[/quote:2db6db52b5]

For people who say this, I'd respond look at the f*cking stats. He was a top player, but not [u:2db6db52b5]the best[/u:2db6db52b5] player in the game. He never hit over 50 Hr's until the juice. There is never a precedent in baseball history of a player hitting so many Hr's at his age, ever. Where did he get that extra power at an old age? Are you really so blind?

It reminds of the people who don't think the oil companies aren't ripping off America. Let's see gas prices went up and the oil companies make record profits, but they say gas prices go up because of oil prices? Ummm.... yea and California only sells oil it refines itself but gas went up after Katrina.... some people will believe whatever lies are fed to them....

[teamnasty]

Baseball history is totally pervaded with attempts to gain advantage that bend or break the rules, but fans and journalists are selective about the kinds of "cheating" that they feel warm and fuzzy about as part of baseball "lore" and those that they condemn harshly. Gaylord Perry was a big ole country boy with a friendly personality who lubed up balls in violation of league rules and arguably the hitters' safety from day one, yet he is lionized as one of the great characters of the game who outsmarted those who suspected him. Barry Bonds on the other hand is a surly African American who doesn't really give a sheet about what mainstream journalists think and so he is viewed extremely differently. If you're going to call out Barry, call out every middle infielder who fails to tag second when completing a double play, call out the Glavines and the Madduxes of the world for knowingly throwing pitches 6 inches off the outside corner given umpires' penchant for rewarding veteran pitchers who seem like really nice guys. Call out Cobb for holding his spikes up when sliding as a reckless endangerment of the safety of others rather than as an example of an "intense desire " to win. Singly out Bonds is cowardly, naive, selective, and in many cases, yes I'm saying it, racist. McGwire was as surly as Bonds with the media before 1998 but he was held up as some golden American hero at the time by journalists who suspected damn well that he was taking Andro or worse. Let's all gain some humility and think more reflectively before casting these ridiculous stones. Finally, all serious statisitical studies of the issue by Baseball Prospectus types and the like show that steroids have a marginal positive, short term effect, with negative longer term consequences. Bonds is no Caminiti, he's no McGwire, he's no Canseco, he never flamed out, he dominated for years before and after 1999. Like him or not, he's the absolute best on the merits, period. Ruth never had to face Satchell Paige or outhomer Josh Gibson.

[visick]

What about all of the other guys out there that were caught and suspended for using "stuff"?

ie. Grimsley for example.

I know it's only 1 example. There are other, both in MLB and the minors.

Grimsely used the stuff. How come he wasn't blowing away people on the mound? Why wasn't he winning 20 games? I'll tell you why...It's because it also takes TALENT to play the game. Bonds can hit, plain and simple.

HGH can be detected in the body, from what I've researched. The really good stuff is a bit harder to detect, but normal folks have normal levels. When you are using, the levels should be considerably higher.

Before the steroid policy, were any anabolic drugs illegal to use? According to MLB...NO. They were not on the banned substance list.
Like it or not, according to MLB, if he did them, he did nothing wrong.

In my lone sociology class @ Hofstra way back when, the teacher posed a question...At what point in world history was ZERO crime committed?
The answer was in Paris, for a period of time, their police went on strike. Were crimes committed during this time? Probably, but with no one to enforce the law, no crime was committed.

When you are out driving your car and going above the speed limit, are you breaking the law? Yes, but if you're not getting caught, your not breaking ANY law.

This all points back to, IMHO, BUD SELIG. Baseball was suffering, attendance was down, and it desperatly needed a lift.

[MICHAELTARBELL]

It is my opinion that, over the same time period (and when healthy) Ken Griffey Jr. was the best player of his era, which includes the glory days of Bonds....

[keyzick]

[quote:32dfd86b3a]The answer was in Paris, for a period of time, their police went on strike. Were crimes committed during this time? Probably, but with no one to enforce the law, no crime was committed.

When you are out driving your car and going above the speed limit, are you breaking the law? Yes, but if you're not getting caught, your not breaking ANY law[/quote:32dfd86b3a]

:shock: :? :? What the...? :lol: :roll:

If a tree falls in the woods, and no one's there to hear it, does it make a sound? :P

Baesball doesn't ban blowtorches from being used on the field of play either.... :wink:

I'll say this about the first McGwire/Sosa season chase. I could not stand McGwire, and was totally pulling for Sosa. I remember McGwire was so distant and never smiled, UNTIL Sammy got on his tear that year, and loosened McGwire up.

The only argument I have no respect for, and absolutely abhor, is those individuals who accuse anyone who dislikes Bonds as being a racist. F'in ridiculous!

[cummings2]

Great points Charlie, as always a very good read.

Personally I'm not too crazy about Bonds and I wish he had cinducted himself in a more dignified way. But that is just a comment on him as a human being not an athlete. He IS a public figure though and that, in my book, makes him more accountable for what he does and says.

However, as a player, I never believed he was the best of his era, not before the big HR boom, the 'roid talk, the injuries, anything. He has had a remarkable career but certainly in my book he was never THE Best.

I am sorry [i:07c5f36f90]HE[/i:07c5f36f90] will pass Aaron but I know someone will pass him, like Aaron passed Ruth, etc..

Not much to offer to the current chat, but just chiming in :wink:

Good to read your stuff on this side of the Bullpen Charlie, keep comin' back to us!

C2