What Barry Bonds Should Do After #754 (o/t)

[teamnasty]

Bonds moved to left early in his career because Van Slyke was in center. After that, Darren Lewis, Willie McGee etc. The guy could outrun Griffey by any statistical measure you want to use. Griffey could outthrow him no doubt. Griffey's D , although good, was always overrated, having to dive for balls (often making memorable catches) precisely because his speed was somewhat lacking. The voters don't pick gold gloves as accurately as they do silver sluggers because our statistical metrics for evaluating good defense are not nearly as advanced as offensive metrics. Hence, you get things like Rafael Palmeiro being voted in, having played 23 games at first.

[MICHAELTARBELL]

[quote:af5694d7bf="teamnasty"]A 54-point gap in onbasepercentage when comparing two full time players over a 9 year-span is, well, overwhelming. Oh yeah, he outslugged Griffey too. Oh yeah, he was faster too. Oh yeah, he played in Candlestick while Griffey played in the homer (king) dome. It's not close folks, not close.[/quote:af5694d7bf]

He was faster? I would certainly question that statement. Yes, he did out slug him (by 35 points...who wouldn't take a 591 slugging %??) and of course his OBP is staggering, no question there (nothing to be ashamed about with Jr's 384 OBP), But he also played on teams without anyone protecting him, so alot of his OBP comes from walks. I wonder how many times Jr would have been intentionally walked in the same lineup during the same time period?? As many as Bonds for sure.

I am not saying that Bonds was not great, but in what is typically a players prime playing years, he was not "head and shoulders" above Jr....Jr had a MUCH stronger arm, much better range, and actually HUSTLED in the field...Maybe the best CF of all time. :wink:

OK, I'm done....cya! :)

[teamnasty]

Yes faster. Jr. broke 20 sb twice in that 9 year span, and had as little as 6. Bonds ranged between 11-40 steals with more triples too. Bonds lack of protection is a point in his favor, not Griffey's. Think of the addtional home runs involved with Edgar Martinez or ARod hitting behind Bonds in that time. Everything you say is within reason, but we can disagree. However, Jr. as "maybe the greatest cf of all time" is outside of the realm of reasonable debate. Cobb, Mantle, and oh yeah, Mays, let alone Tris Speaker etc. Junior had a much stronger arm but not better range; Bonds' spin move holding batters to singles on line drives hit down the line is legendary. Bonds' lack of "hustle" on routine grounders may not be admirable to you, but his incredible durability is accounted for in part because he conserved his energy for the right moments.

[BRIANSIELSKI]

Let's bring this back to reality.

Barry Bonds* Rookie Card:
http://www.tvsquad.com/media/2006/03/Barry-Bonds-rookie-card.jpg

Sammy Sosa's Rookie Card:
http://www.basehit.net/CatImages/90Score558.jpg

Jason Giambi Rookie Card:
http://www.bases-loaded.com/giambi191.jpg

Mark McGuaire Rookie Card:
http://firsttube.com/uploads/mm87.jpg



[b:74388a7804]Let the images speak for themselves.[/b:74388a7804]

:shock:
:shock:
:shock:

[teamnasty]

Post Gwynn and Ripken's rookie cards, also get two skinny guys.

[BRIANSIELSKI]

[quote:2aecf81c27]st Gwynn and Ripken's rookie cards, also get two skinny guys.[/quote:2aecf81c27]

LOL! Tony Gwynn just got fat ... but still managed to play at a level that was on par with Don Mattingly. Ageing wasn't as bad with Cal ... but you can see the difference between jucie and just age effects.

[MICHAELTARBELL]

[quote:d46b991ae7]However, Jr. as "maybe the greatest cf of all time" is outside of the realm of reasonable debate. Cobb, Mantle, and oh yeah, Mays, let alone Tris Speaker etc.[/quote:d46b991ae7]

Yes, MAYBE the best CF of all time. Mays I would put in his league, and Mantle for awhile (until his injury). Cobb never played CF that I am aware of, and Speaker, not sure, never saw him play. I am sure he was very good tho (has a nice atg card! :wink: ). But certainly, when you can only name 3 other CF's in history, that makes him PERHAPS or MAYBE one of the greatest CF's of all time...

[quote:d46b991ae7]Bonds lack of protection is a point in his favor, not Griffey's. Think of the addtional home runs involved with Edgar Martinez or ARod hitting behind Bonds in that time.[/quote:d46b991ae7]

I was referencing his astounding OBP, not his HRs....HRs would probably have gone up, OBP gone down in that scenario...

[quote:d46b991ae7]Bonds' spin move holding batters to singles on line drives hit down the line is legendary. Bonds' lack of "hustle" on routine grounders may not be admirable to you, but his incredible durability is accounted for in part because he conserved his energy for the right moments.[/quote:d46b991ae7]

Legendary spin move..don't really recall that.

So it is OK to not hustle on Defense, as long as you save it up for Offense? So if Michael Jordan never played Defense, would he still be considered the greatest Basketball player of all time? I doubt it, you have to be great on both sides of the ball to fall into those categories (Mays certainly qualifies, and is probably THE BEST baseball player that ever lived)

As you say, we can disagree, and this is fun. You obviously are a BIG bonds fan, and for you I am glad that he is about to break Aaron's HR record. :)

[BRIANSIELSKI]

[quote:638aeaef90]you have to be great on both sides of the ball to fall into those categories [/quote:638aeaef90]

Hence the "5-Tool" player ....

[BRIANSIELSKI]

[quote:4a75a6bfaa]Post Gwynn and Ripken's rookie cards, also get two skinny guys. [/quote:4a75a6bfaa]

I was thinking about this more … and the thing about Gwynn and Ripken is that they didn’t have gargantuan heads in their later career years. When you look at Sosa, Bonds*, Giambi, et al., their heads are massive as compared to their rookie cards.

They have those veins popping out the sides of their heads (kind of reminds me of the old original Star Trek episode where those big headed aliens with mind/thought control and Cpt. Pike).

Doc

[KEVINSMITH 2]

Bonds had a big head before roids too....just a little different. I think he should confess, retire, write a book, change his name to Reggie Stocker, the player formally known as Barry Bonds*...or YA here in Stat World. Then he would no longer show up in video games as they would be sued for using his likeness, and his name would be too long.

PS....I'm not racist :)