Hall of Fame 2006: Results Really In! Sutter Really Wins!

[steal third]

Blyleven
Trammell
Rice
Gossage
Herhiser
Murphy
Lee Smith
Mattingly

[Lucey01606]

Dawson
Rice (I think he will be helped the most by the steriods scandal)
Smith
Gossage
Sutter
Trammell

[Outta Leftfield]

Thanks for the additional votes. :D

The polls close midnight on Sunday (EST). I'll post final results on Monday. Then the debate can begin.... :wink:

[T.Richardson]

I would just like to say that people who think atheletes weren't using steroids in the 80's are naive. It was prevelant in the equine athelete as early as the early 70's to think human atheletes waited until the 90's to try them is a stretch.

[Runnin Rebel]

Picking ten:


Dawson

Sutter

Blyleven

Parker

Gossage

Garvey

Orel

Mc Gee

Clark

Belle


I feel there should be 3-4 sure picks, 3-4 mid level picks, and 2 players who should be helped along in their early years of eligibilty.

[Jimmy_C]

Regardless of the stats...there is no way for Albert Belle to make it into the HOF. Who did he piss off most during his career...the sportswriters!! Who votes for HOF'rs...the sportswriters!! He's got the proverbial fork sticking out of him IMO.

[Outta Leftfield]

I decided to leave the polls open till Monday at midnight since some people are around Monday to check out new teams.

[Jablowmi]

OK, here goes.

Trammell
Goose
Sutter
Rice (although I'm leary of his Fenway-inflated numbers)

[abnerdoubleday]

Sorry for missing the cutoff and not even filing an extension. Here are my late votes and comments from the list of candidates mentioned at the start of this thread:

This group of candidates has several players with long solid careers that did not really "dominate" or stand out above the crowd in very many seasons. Blyleven comes to mind first with his single 20 win season and only 2 All Star appearances, yet he was solid for a long time. To me he was not great or at the top of his position often enough to be hall of fame, although he had a long good career. I think Hershiser kind of fits this category as well. He won 204 games in 18 seasons with a .576 winning percentage. In 1988 he went 23-8 to win the CYA and it was a period where he finished in the top 4 in the CY race four seasons out of five. All three of his all star apperances came during these years. He was great for that five year period, but mostly just solid the rest of his career. Not quite enough dominating seasons for the HOF for me. Tommy John had 288 wins in a 26 year career and 3 seasons of 20 or more wins. Never won a CYA, but finished in the top 4 three times. Named to 4 all star teams, but again just not enough dominating seasons for my taste.

Then there are guys like Albert Belle that had some periods of dominance. He had a nine years in a row of 100+ rbi's including a 148 and 152 season. He had five all star appearances all in a row to go with five silver slugger awards. So he met the dominance test for me, but his degenerative arthritic hip knocked him out of baseball at the age of 33. His surliness is a drawback, but my dislike of his personality would not impact my vote for him. I just think his career stats are a tad short by a couple years of more solid seasons, although his offensive stats (in spite of his defensive adventures) were way out there for over half a decade of performance.

A guy I loved as a player, Don Mattingly, had 5 out of 6 seasons from 84-89 where he was a dominant offensive player. He made all six of his all star appearnces during those years and won the MVP in 85, finishing in the top 5 two other times. But from 1990 on he was a shell of his old self. In my mind he needed a few more of the great years or at least near great years to cement his HOF entry.

Dale Murphy had some flashes of brilliance from 1982-1987 when he won 2 MVP awards, made 6 of his 7 all star appearances, won five gold gloves, and was in the top 5 in total bases a total of 7 times. But after those seasons he to was a shell of himself and more often than not hit in the .220's with 20ish HR's and 70-80 rbi's. He falls just short for me, but is very close because of having played CF where there were less offensive players than the positions Belle/Clark/Mattingly played.

Running out of time to post more, but Dave Parker, Jim Rice and Allan Trammell fell just short of the dominating seasons at their position as well, although each is close. Rice was good for a long time. But the OF position has many guys with big career numbers. I could see either of these guys getting in on a close vote though.

There is also a group of guys like Will Clark who played 15 seasons of solid ball with flashes of brilliance early on, but not really a dominating player from the age of 28 on. Playing at a offensive position (he was good defender as evidenced by his gold glove in 91, but not great) his numbers were nothing spectacular 1992 to his final year in 2000. In that span he had a single 100 rbi season (102 in 1998 playing in Texas big park) and only had more than 80 rbi's one other season in that span with 92 in Texas in 1995. I liked the guys hustle/fire but he was a good ball player and not a great player based on his numbers at an offensive position.

There is a group of early "can't miss" guys like Doc Gooden who started off like a sure fire HOF player. He was dominating early, but by the time he reached 26 (he still played nine more seasons) he was only a shell of himself as he fought numerous personal problems and injuries. He burned bright, but not for a long enough period to be HOF IMO.

After that long ramble, here is the list of guys that I would vote for entrance to the HOF from the list provided by Outta Leftfield:

[b:2f1e5fcbbd]My choices[/b:2f1e5fcbbd]

Andre "the Hawk" Dawson - 20 year career started by a ROY award, followed by 8 All Star appearances, 8 Gold Gloves, A NL MVP in 1987, 2 second place MVP finishes, 9 times in the top 10 in HR's, 10 times in the top 10 in total bases (led the league twice), 5 seasons of 20/20 and 438 career HR's. To me the Hawk meets the qualifications for HOF entrance as a CF/RFer.

Bruce Sutter - at the forefront of the change to an emphasis on RP's (alog with Gossage and later Lee Smith/Eckersley). Sutter's career was not quite as long as I normally prefer, but he burst onto the scene with that split finger pitch and was unhittable (Gagne like) for quite a few years. He led the league in saves 5 times and had a career best 45 in 1984 (this was right at the dawn of the age of when RP's started racking up huge save totals). 4 other seasons he was in the top 6. He won the Cy Young in 79 and had 4 other seasons in the top six for the CYA.

Lee Smith - all time saves leader with 478 was not as lights out as Sutter was, but he had a longer career of being one of the top RP's for a long time. He still led the league in saves 5 times and finished in the top 5 seven other seasons. Finished in the top 5 for the CYA three out of four seasons from 91-94 and had 7 all star appearances.


Maybe I am just to stringent on my HOF voting, as I was surprised to get to the point of only having only one hitter nominated (Dawson playing a position such as CF where there were not as many big offensive players as the other candidates positions, plus he had the great defense and speed to boot) and then the two RP's were a further recognition on my part of the way these two were part of changing the way the game is now played the last few innings. And although I did not put Belle, Gosssage, Mattingly, Parker, Rice or Trammell on my list - I certainly would not oppose their HOF entry.

This was a fun subject.
8) Thanks Outta Leftfield.

[Outta Leftfield]

The HOF election results are in, and if 80's managers made the call, Bruce Sutter would be the only one elected. There were 30 votes and so the cutoff for 75% and, therefore, election was 22.5 votes. Sutter got 24. Gossage came very close, with 22 votes even (73.3 %). The next closest was Rice with 20.

In order of votes received, here are the results:

Sutter 24
Gossage 22
Rice 20
Dawson 18
Mattingly 18
Trammell 17
Blyleven 15
Smith 13
Morris 8
Hershiser 7
Murphy 7
Parker 7
Clark 6
John 6
Belle 2
Concepcion 1

This whole voting process has been very interesting to watch--both for who got votes and also the reasons given for those votes. I think we've got a real microcosm of informed baseball opinion here and I wouldn't be terribly suprised if the voting followed reasonably closely the pattern we see here with Sutter and Gossage (It's time for the closers!) getting the most support (whether or not they win.) Maybe Mattingly, Rice and Blyleven did a little better here than they will do in real life--which might reflect their dominance in the 80s game?

One thing that impresses me from all this is that 75% is a really hard standard. Not everyone votes their whole ballot--some vote for only one, two, three, or four candidates. And it doesn't take many leaving somebody off to resut in non-election. Ultimately there's balancing act between dominance and a long, high quality career and most of these players meet one criterion completely but the other less completely, which is why their election is uncertain.

I'm going to post a separate message arguing for why I think Trammell deserves election. And I encourage debate on why this or that players deserves to be in the Hall--or doesn't. :D