Bob's FRANCHISE 5 - COMMITTEE CHAT SITE FOR PROJ ROSTERS

[rschwartz51]

I"M OK WITH YOUR RECOMENDATION ABOVE TO BE ABLE TO USE CUP OF COFFEE PLAYERS AT THE 81 GAME MARK.

NO VOTE UNLESS I HEAT AN OBJECTION.

[rschwartz51]

I'm going to review and revise the Red Sox, Modern Yankees, Pre War Yankees, Pirates, Dodgers, Giants, Tigers & Braves/Brewers.

Can committee members ( whoever can but Todd should be involved at the minimum) begin focusing on CUBS / CARDS and the following questions.

1) No opinion on my part is being given just facts to ponder.

The CUBS / CARDS along with the Giants are tied together and it's finally time to make the hard decisions. Todd has done work on this which I will use along with observations I make.

a. Pete Alexander had a more significant role with Cubs vs the Cards. Initially he was placed on the Cards. I observed that Carlton and Gibson weren't on the roster for the Cards and Max Lanier/ Dizzy Dean as the ace of the staff is well below the Cubs with M. Brown.

b. Rogers Hornsby played a more significant role for the Cards but he was a great player for the Cubs. Because the Cubs had Ryne Sandberg who is an elite though poorer 2B vs Rajah I had no problem with Hornsby being a Card.

c. Joe Morgan with the Reds being out is being placed at 2B on the Giants.

Should Pete be a Cub or a Card.

If a Card and with Hornsby also taken from the Cubs don't we need to find help to compensate the Cubs.

Should the Cards have Hornsby and Frisch or Hornsby and Boyer or Kurowski. Do the Giants have a 3B to replace Frisch who is more of a Card but if they get Hornsby, Frisch & Alexander aren't they getting a real advantage over the Cubs & Giants.

[rschwartz51]

White Sox to Red Sox to Modern Yankees

C. Fisk can certainly be claimed by both these Franchises. However, the W' Sox can opt for Lollar, Downing/Schalk leaving Fisk to return to the Red Sox which allows Howard to be reunited with Yankees giving a righthanded bat a badly needed salary boost. Though with Berra the Yanks have a solid Catcher it does seem better with this if the White Sox are not hurt.


I've proposed using Joe Jackson on CHI. I've reviewed everything and with Cleveland getting F. Robinson, O. Hess, E. Murray, and the proposed Chico Cleon Jones along with Mule Haas or Tommy Agee there is only one thing that needed to be done.

Billy Pierce is vita for CHI as he can start and is a lefty RP. He also has a very significant role in CWS history and none with SF.

I did find Rube Marquard who I want to go on the Giants as he is good and a Giant.

[andycummings65]

7) Dodgers
Agree

8) Giants
Agree
(although I think we should pick one btwn Herzog/Fletcher and leave Cepeda for the open markett, since the Giants have 5 relievers listed) [color=red:06de6bd094]we need to pare down the 5 Giant relievers, just wanted to get input from committee--I think Miller & lefferts are definites[/color:06de6bd094]
9) Pirates
Agree w/all excpt Fryman. Replace with Giusti.
He should go to Tigers, Newhouser to Cleveland (Newhouser is listed under both teams). I know the Pirates are loaded with righties, but that's their cross to bare. [color=red:06de6bd094]didn't mean to leave Newhouser on both, was really shooting for the Tigers, as he spent the bulk of his career as a SP for the Tigers. I have no problem with todd's idea, though[/color:06de6bd094]
10) Cubs
Agree
Pick Taylor over Holtzman
[color=red:06de6bd094]trying to give another LH option, but with Pfiester, don't necessarily need it[/color:06de6bd094]

11) Cards
Agree with all excpt.
1B- should be R. Collins
[color=red:06de6bd094]Ripper or McGwire, doesn't matter to me. "I'm not here to talk about the past." However, if we put McGwire here, the Cubs have the option of going a different direction than Chance at 1b[/color:06de6bd094]

12) Braves
Agree with all except;
3b- Should be Mathews/Bando [color=red:06de6bd094]oops, forgot Mathews!!! :oops: [/color:06de6bd094]
SP5- should be Young instead of Buhl
[color=red:06de6bd094]I was shooting more for historical accuracy by putting Young on Indians & Hess on Braves. Don't really have a problem either way ( i would personally rather see Cy on the Red Sox, but that's Sox fanspeak) he's actually even an option for the Cardinals, too.[/color:06de6bd094]

[andycummings65]

I'm going to review and revise the Red Sox, Modern Yankees, Pre War Yankees, Pirates, Dodgers, Giants, Tigers & Braves/Brewers.

Can committee members ( whoever can but Todd should be involved at the minimum) begin focusing on CUBS / CARDS and the following questions.

1) No opinion on my part is being given just facts to ponder.

The CUBS / CARDS along with the Giants are tied together and it's finally time to make the hard decisions. Todd has done work on this which I will use along with observations I make.

a. Pete Alexander had a more significant role with Cubs vs the Cards. Initially he was placed on the Cards. I observed that Carlton and Gibson weren't on the roster for the Cards and Max Lanier/ Dizzy Dean as the ace of the staff is well below the Cubs with M. Brown.

b. Rogers Hornsby played a more significant role for the Cards but he was a great player for the Cubs. Because the Cubs had Ryne Sandberg who is an elite though poorer 2B vs Rajah I had no problem with Hornsby being a Card.

c. Joe Morgan with the Reds being out is being placed at 2B on the Giants.

Should Pete be a Cub or a Card.

If a Card and with Hornsby also taken from the Cubs don't we need to find help to compensate the Cubs.

Should the Cards have Hornsby and Frisch or Hornsby and Boyer or Kurowski. Do the Giants have a 3B to replace Frisch who is more of a Card but if they get Hornsby, Frisch & Alexander aren't they getting a real advantage over the Cubs & Giants. [color=red:1beebc6089]Could sending Riggs Stephenson back as an option for the Cubs, and adding, say, Flick to the Indians give the Cubs a little bit of help in losing Hornsby to the Cards? Stephenson would definitely be a help if the manager wanted to go with a Wrigley59 team. Although Pete definitely helps the Cards staff, they NEED it. The Cubs are ok without him, and Hornsby gives the Cardinals lineup some added help once Clark is gone to the Giants. [b:1beebc6089]The real question in my mind is, where does Frisch go?[/b:1beebc6089] He played 11 seasons with the Cards & 8 with the Giants. He will have to play his 2nd position (at least in our eyes) on either roster (unless the Giant manager chooses not to use Morgan). The question is, who needs 3b help more, the Giants or Cardinals? Giants have Herzog, Fletcher, Davenport as options, while the Cardinals have Boyer, Kurowski, todd's Walling/Pepper platoon[/color:1beebc6089]

[andycummings65]

[quote:54a8f8e47d]Billy Pierce is vital for CHI as he can start and is a lefty RP. He also has a very significant role in CWS history and none with SF. [/quote:54a8f8e47d]
agree with the historical assessment...........

[CHRISTIANSTOUGH]

RE: Pierce

Agree with historical assessment, disagree with his need on the SoX.
They already have Lefty Williams AND Koosman- they don't need another lefty

The Giants have horrible pitching, Pierce makes them stronger (although still pretty medium).

With the White Sox, he'll spot start, with the Giants he'll be their 3rd starter

RE: Howard

Yogi is obviously the better historical choice. Howard is the better ATG Player.
On the Yankees, Howard would put Yogi on the bench.
On the Red Sox, Howard starts, while Yogi starts for the Yanks.
Not only is the better historical alternative used, but better ballance is achieved.

The Post War Yanks are the Best (or 2nd Best, if the Cubs get Pete) team- they don't need ANY help.

RE: Fisk
I know Red Sox fans would say that Fisk is thier guy, but White SOx fans would strongly disagree.
The Red Sox get Howard and any ATG manager worth his slat will start him above Fisk. So if Fisk is on the bench, why not let the White Sox have him?

[CHRISTIANSTOUGH]

RE: Cubs

The best team in the Bob 1-4 series.

I currently have them without Hornsby or Stephenson and With Alexander and they are running away with it.

My Cubs team is 3rd in scoring without Stephenson or Hornsby. IMO their offense is fine. The don't need Stepehenson or Hornsby back.

My Cubs pitching is 1st, despite being in the same division with the Yanks pre, the Yanks post and the Red Sox (the number 1 and #2 ofenses).


I agree that Alexander is more a Cub than a Card.

But the Cubs do NOT need him; Brown, Pfiester, Taylor , Reulbach, and lowly Joe Decker would be plenty of pitching- they'll still have the best staff in the league

If the Cubs get Pete, they win every time.

So, yes, I think he should go to the Cards.


RE: the Cards

I've played 4 cardinal theme teams in ATG. 3 @ 100m and all of them had a hard time winning. (my 80m team was good)

Why?
Many reasons,
1)they ar by nature a platoon/ switch hitting team. This makes them vulenrable to relief changes. Even if the settngs are good, they'll still be htiing the wrong way 10% of the time. Add injuries and the number goes up.
2) Ozzie Smith/Curt Flood. Both of these guys blow when note facing their prefered pitcher. Yet both have to be in the line-up. So You end up losing 1 man in your line-up. Basicly, no matter how strong your line up is, you'll have a .200 hitter.
3) Catcher/3rd base- both of these positions are weak, even with platoons, the fielding is terrible
4) The Cards pitching is very medium, Dean/Pollet/Breechan/Lanier scares no one at 100m+, add Gibson and Carlton and teams are licking their chops
5) Other than Busch '87,the Cards are looking at lefty banger parks, their line-up doesn't fit them. At Busch '87, Hornsby, Collins and their other bangers lose effectiveness.

Conclusion:
A. With Frisch AND Hornsby, Mize, R. Smith and Musial, the Cards are not scary, but their competitive.
B. With Alexander, they have a fighting chance, but they won't run away with it- ever.

With ALL of those guys, I still rank them in the Bottom 4.

The cool thing about the Cards is their versatility ; that makes them a fun team.

[CHRISTIANSTOUGH]

RE: Giants

I've been surprised at the reults of Bob 1-4, as these guys usually ran away with it in my 100m leagues. So why are they so average?

Problems;

1)The play in Polo, they need bangers, yet they have limited options.
Not only is Calrk a better fit for Polo, but so is Morgan.

2) their pitching. It's thin, thin, thin. This is why I'm gung ho for Pierce.

3) they are lame at 3rd

Solutions:
1)+ 2)= stated above

3) Could be worse, they could be the Tigers- and I like Herzog. I really like a Herzog/Fletcher platoon.

Conclusion:
With 3 10 million dollar hitters and some great value guys (if 6m can be considered a value), the Giants line up is stronger that the Cardinals line-up already.
Morgan, the Clark then Mays, or Youngs, Morgan, Clark, then Mays, means Mays will get 1000 RBI's
Their pitching is weaker if the Cardinals get Pete;
but not enough to make them worse then the Cards.

My Analysis: The Giants are better; but not by much

[CHRISTIANSTOUGH]

RE Indians/ White Sox;

Your right- Jackson should go to the White Sox