Is there really a problem with computer bullpen management?

[kaviksdad]

Bernie,

It's been my experience that HAL does a pretty good job with a deep pen. The more available relievers, the better the matchups. Even the specialists seem to be used as one would like. Granted there are those times when some moves are mystifying, but often can be explained by fatigue rules, managerial strategy and per-game starter settings.

If you run a 3 or 4 man pen you are going to see (and be a victim of) bad bullpen management. You have yourself (mostly) to blame for that.

But this is just one man's opinion :)

[Sykes25]

I have to agree with Bernie here. My bullpen management for my 80's teams and 200X teams is quite effective as I usually carry 5 RP and don't bury any of them. When I play ATG2, I tend to ride the big 4 most of the time. When I use 5 man staffs, I tend to get better bullpen use.

To reveal a bit here for 80's bullpen management, I usually default my bullpen settings to restrict all pitchers to quick hook, 1-2 max. I don;t avoid LH or RH hitters. I let HAL do that intially. Once splits begin to be revealed, I adjust accordingly by removing the quick hook, or tightening up the guy with avoid LH or RH. I turn my bullpen over much less than the average 80's manager, yet I yield the same or better results for most of my pens.

200X is really much easier. I use my closer for 9th inning only. 40+ saves is a virtual lock with about 70-90 innings being thrown. Primary setup comes in after the 7th and can log 110-140 innings. Everybody else gets the 1-2 IP max and sometimes the quick hook avoid LH RH.

I will look for some links later to support my bullpen management. I just wish I could manage my hitters better. :wink:

My lack of success at times is not due to poor bullpens, but rather ineffective use of SP or not changing hitters soon enough when they struggle.

[durantjerry]

I agree with the point by Bernie H re:deeper bullpens providing better results and I have made the point myself whenever the subject comes up. Hal will never be perfect or do things exactly as you would, but the deeper your pen, the better chance you have for success with specialized settings IMO. I posted stats a while ago to back this claim up. I'm not saying all HAL horror stories are not true, but some are due to team structure. I could write a horror story about Hal bringing in Chuck Crim in game 7 in the eigth, but what I don't say is that I lost the three previous games and my bullpen was overtaxed, ergo Chuck Crim. People complain about the % of RH batters a LH specialist ends up facing, but if you look at the cards, most of them face more RH in real-life also. Some SOMOer's won't be happy unless their LH specialist faces 95% LH batters when they only have four relievers and play in Coors. Again, not discounting all complaints, but some are your own fault. A silly poll post a while ago asked if the settings had any effect. Most said the settings were worthless. As someone who played with no settings, I know they have a great effect because players that were very lopsided were not even used due to no control over who they would face. The L/R settings were a major improvement over nothing and while not perfect(what is?), I appreciate them as I will appreciate any future improvements.
Fatty

[bleacher_creature]

[quote:48bdc441c6]"...but the deeper your pen, the better chance you have for success with specialized settings IMO."[/quote:48bdc441c6]

As stated by BernieH, this is the truth and you know it. I recently posted my team that shows five specialists (4 priced under $1M), plus Benitez, where HAL himself managed this group to NEAR PERFECTION for 162 games.

Now, I just lost a playoff game where HAL lifted a non-tired (according to the board game rules) A. Benitez with a one run lead in the bottom of the 9th for Yan (man on 1st and 0 out). SINGLE, HR, done. Benitez HAD NOT pitched the previous game (game 1 of semis).

If I were managing this game, I would have preferred to go down with my best man if I were going to go down.

I believe HAL looked at the opposition lineup with its L-R-S combinations throughout, and said let's go reverse righty and end this game. If it had worked, of course there would be no complaint.

One thing is for certain in this instance, is that THE HR CAME OFF THE HITTER'S CARD (Mackowiak). Still, Shouse was totally rested, NOT OVERWORKED, and available.

What can you do?

[1crazycanuk]

I'd like to think that no question or post is "silly". Why would you call a post silly when you didn't use settings to begin with? :?

[Roscodog]

I generally always carry a 7 man bullpen and for the most part it's usually managed fairly well. My 9R and 9L pitchers still seem to face more of the opposite bat than I'd like, but that happens in real life sometimes to.

[Sheikyerboudi]

Bernie - why can we not use the "Super Hal" bullpen options that are included in the CDROM game?

-FZL

[tersignf]

I've posted this much at various times as well--limit a rudimentary AI's choices and expect terrible results. And I think that's how it should be--I'm more annoyed by a team that hides pitchers. I've also had success with bullpens of at least 5 guys who get used.

For a game that painstakingly does a great job creating statistical representations of player ability, we reduce it to a quirky crapshoot when we allow gaming of the engine with unrealistic exploits of AI tendencies.

I do agree though that the Super HAL logic would be great.

[packleader]

I have found the key to respectable performance out of a pen managed by HAL is to have enough arms available so no one pitches tired. If I haven't liked the management by HAL, I have tweaked the settings on the manager strategy option or on the individual settings for the individual pitchers and can generally get the use out of each pitcher as desired within a couple of series. Besides, now, when my team is terrible, I can always blame it on HAL. :D So I would not vote to change things without overwhelming evidence that it will fix a problem.

[Sheikyerboudi]

I'm not suggesting that we make changes to the existing bullpen AI, I suggesting that TSN utilize the same bullpen system that is included in the CDROMBB version. It must not be made available to them by SOM, otherwise, what would be the problem in letting us use it?