Is there really a problem with computer bullpen management?

[bjs73]

HAL does ok with the limited controls that we are provided to direct him if the bullpen is deep enough. However, even with depth, there are errors that need to be addressed. The biggest problem with HAL even on a deep pen is his misuse of reliever specialists. ie, "your left handed, one out guy." ETC.

HAL doesn't get it when it comes to using these fellas in a setup role.
we can set our settings for optimal effect and still get burned by it.

HAL is more than happy to leave a pitcher in the game assuming he gets the job done even if the next batter is shown to be a terrible matchup. This produces disasterous results at times.

The bullpen logic for setup men is not good. HAL can't and won't take direction from us when it comes to hooking setup specialists. However, I don't have nearly as many problems with this when I use the SUPERHAL bullpen logic lines to program my bullpen management. HAL hooks the guys like I want him to do.

That's because SUPERHAL BULLPEN LOGIC allows the manager to set every single parameter available with the appropriate depth charts from your bullpen with each situation. It's a wonderful tool.

I spent a lot of time tweaking the SuperHAL bullpen logic and now I've got a computer manager that I can trust. I would vote for all superHAL controls to be ported to the TSN game. (Bullpen Logic AND Baserunning!)I'm sure that it would benefit the community greatly.

If TSN were to bring SuperHAL features to the game format with some limited work instructions on how to use the thing, the veterans in the games would provide support via league forums on the nuts and bolts of creating and maintaining it.

[durantjerry]

I called the post silly because:it's not that I didn't use available settings, but in the initial year of the game(2001) there were no individual player settings and you were forced to play quite a bit differently than when settings were introduced. A guy with a 9R rating could not really be used effectively(unless the other team was lopsided), as there was no "quick hook", "1 or 2 inning max", or "vs L or R Only" protection. To me, to say the settings have no effect is silly and the question must have been asked by someone who always played with settings and didn't know what it was like without them. It was probably the greatest SOMO improvement made to date and made the game much better.

[visick]

I think a test of 2 similar leagues with similar players needs to be started.

Have the first group use the current settings BUT have the second group use the SUPERHAL BULLPEN logic.

[rgimbel]

there is no question that although i feel overall that hal does a poor job with bullpen mgt he does do a lot better with more options. that being said one major glitch in the formula is with switch hitters i had a pen with 7 relievers 4 lefties and 3 righties all with 5 of them avoid the other side. what hal would do is pull a lefty vs a switch hitter to put in a righty without realizing that the batter would turn around hal would burn out the bullpen leaving only one pitcher left for the 9th. In other words program hal so that he recognizes switch hitters.

[gkhd11a]

I employ mostly pitching teams and mostly in ATGII. I have studied and worked with the settings in great depth. I have played pitching teams in 2005 and back to the 80's as well. I have found the bullpen logic works quite well with one exception as long as you give HAL what he want 4 pitchers for the roles and a pitcher to eat innings when the pen is tired.

The one exception is the Mop-up role. HAL picks that person too often to be an effective mopup. However if you have 5 relievers and 4 are assigned in the boxes the fifith is used quite effectively as a mop up reliever, provided you do not check use as mop-up reliever.

All this being said there is a problem which has developed over the last few months in ATGII and that is the desire to use 3 relievers only by forcing starters in starting roles and lying about who will pitch the next game. HAL will not use that pitcher and it is effective in creating a 3 pitcher deficit in the bullpen to use only 3 in relief who then can be more expensive.

There are even 5 man starting staffs using only 1 reliever by using S/R as the real starters and 4 S starters in the starting rotation and winning championships because of the money savings to offense and pitching not being penalized (under 3.00 ERA which is unrealistic if you pitch 6 guys that much against the greatest hitters of all time). Various threads in ATG Board about that. As more and more teams have employed this approach I have found the "realistic" method of bullpen usuage is not as effective as the "contorted" method. For the same dollars the 3 man approach channelling the money into the bullpen is much better.

I have recently had to throw in the towel in the traditional approach which I hated to do. ALmost every league has at least 6-7 teams with 2 pitchers not pitching. I have seen Eckersly a R1 pitcher get 175 innings. The penalty on relief fatigue is not severe enough. Also the penalty on fatigue for a pitcher who has relieved lately is also not severe enough. I Babe Adams is a favorite to overuse as he can pitch 350 innings and still have an ERA under 3. The source of this originally was players who felt S9 starters should pitch 9 innings every game and wouldn't need a bulpen. They developed the strategy and as it found success it is now becoming a requirement to remain competitive with pitching teams.

Charlie

[gkhd11a]

One more point. Many people who complain HAL is not using the pen effectively have not realized that the setup men really need to be rated R3 or better to be effective in that role. Hal decides R-2's need rest much more often than a R-3 and hesitates to use. And a R-4 in the setup role is ideal. In ATGII this would be a Hall or Konstancy. R-1 have no place in the setup role but some in ATGII use Eckersely this way and force him upon HAL in the above described manner so he'll use him fatigued which is still better than 90% of all pitchers.

The other point is HAL prefers straight R rated relievers in the relief role over S/R types and that HAL uses the closer rating to determine who to bring in to close even though that setting is not supposed to be utilized in ATGII.



Charlie
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[Simon31]

Clarification of the settings would help. i have run many teams without using any of the managerial settings and let HAL have his way with my bullpen. The usual "avoid Lefties" etc have been marked on the player cards but thats it. For the most part it does seem like HAL tries to spread the innings around so nobody is too tired but what grinds me is when HAL pulls a reliever who isn't tired after 1/3 of an inning even if he's checked "slow hook." Thats where i get confused. if managerial settings are put to "aggressive," but you have "slow hook" checked on the pitchers card, which one does HAL pay the most attention to? i have yet to discern any logic as to how he puts relievers in, or takes them out, since he has pulled Pete on me after 5 innings and 1 run, and yet he will leave certain relievers in after him to get killed, even if they are checked to "quick hook."

[gkhd11a]

Simon, to select agressive use of bullpen and then slow hook is contradictory and HAL will be confused. Think in terms of Sparky Anderson when you think aggresive use of bullpen. To use aggresive in the first place you need a deep pen. Aggresive implies you are looking for matchups and HAL will be quick to switch but he needs ammo to fire. At least 6 usable pitchersand really probably 8 to be truly effective - 12 man staff. You can't really be aggresive with a 4 man relief staff when you want one guy to get a lot of innings. If you have 1 pitcher you want to use why would you be aggresive? You would set him as slow hook and select roles for the other pitchers or quick hook for all the others not aggresive use of pen and I'd sadvise using him as your setup man - who gets the most innings. you could even use him as setup against lefties and righties if you want a lot of innings for one guy.

[Simon31]

Thats why I said I needed clarification, and that helps. Thank you! I know it's contradictory, thats why I wasn't sure when HAL is faced with that choice, does the managerial setting take precedence over the individual setting. A deep pen is always a plus to be sure, but i have spent up to 15 mil on bullpens that get killed mostly because the way HAL handles, not just my relievers, but my starters as well. I have 1 team now where HAL keeps yanking Pete in the 5th, 6th and 7th inning when he's not even close to being in trouble. I have my managerial settings at "conservative" and his individual setting at "slow hook." Still, he gets yanked. Back to my original point . I thought that putting the managerial setting to aggresive e."meant that HAL would change pitchers IF they ran into trouble faster than if the setting was on "conservative. This doesn't seem to be the case as a lot of my relievers come in for 1/3 or 2/3 innings and are gone. Rested or not. Somebody, I think it was NEV, had a team not long ago where Konstanty had about 140 IP and the rest of his bullpen was around 20 to 30 IP. If HAL is considering "rested" pitchers, how does this kind of thing happen or is it just some kind of anomoly? I just don't get bullpen commands like I should. If I did, maybe my teams wouldn't lose so many games in the bottom of the 9th or extra innings! :lol:

[Simon31]

gk, thanks again for all your help. Food for thought in handling my relievers. Not sure how you can tell a closer rating on the ATG players other than maybe their limited IP, but I'll give a few more things a try with my pens.