BULLPENS IN THE 80's
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BULLPENS IN THE 80's
by hechojazz » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:07 pm
I've noticed that unlike in the '04 and '05 games, many teams in the 80's are built with very little $$ devoted to the bullpen. Why is that? Is it a gamble that you'll get maybe the one good year each of those .75 RPs offers, and for those that don't work out, you can drop 'em for another try? Is it just a matter of resource allocation, the focus being on building a massive offense to accompany solid SPs? I've put 12.32mil into my pen, by far the most in the league (Holland, Gott, Howe, Eichhorn, Murphy & O'Neal). We're starting tonight, and while I'm feeling pretty good about my team, I just want to see if I've missed the boat on an important rule of thumb in the 80's game...
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by YountFan » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:46 pm
Spend on SP or RP, but not both. If you have solid starter than you can get by with 1 expensive guy and the rest cheapies. You only need 3 good guys out there most of the time. If you have solid SP your RP will not pitch enough to warrent the cost. I almost always gave 4 .75 guys and 1 1-2m guy.
If you go with cheap SP get some good RP as they will pitch more. But then I don't care if I ever get a save as long as I win. If you want to rack up meaningless saves, take Eck, Want to win, take 7 cheapie and roll the dice.
It is all a factor of how the IP's are distributed. I have a team with all .75 cent SP and 15m in RP. I win games late because I hold them down at the end. Have 25m in SP and win games early by holding them down.
There are 100,000,000 different ways to play this game. Experiment and find what work for you.
I also find that I do better by letting HAL manage the pen and I do not set any setup or closer setting...ever. Why save your best guy for the 9th when you may need him in the 6th to stop a rally.
Good Luck
BTW: I've put 12.32mil into my pen, by far the most in the league (Holland, Gott, Howe, Eichhorn, Murphy & O'Neal)
You only need one of them. Keep Howe, Eichhorn, Murphy and upgrade elsewhere. You can free 6m in this deal. Thats an all-star player. Post a link to you team for more advice.
If you go with cheap SP get some good RP as they will pitch more. But then I don't care if I ever get a save as long as I win. If you want to rack up meaningless saves, take Eck, Want to win, take 7 cheapie and roll the dice.
It is all a factor of how the IP's are distributed. I have a team with all .75 cent SP and 15m in RP. I win games late because I hold them down at the end. Have 25m in SP and win games early by holding them down.
There are 100,000,000 different ways to play this game. Experiment and find what work for you.
I also find that I do better by letting HAL manage the pen and I do not set any setup or closer setting...ever. Why save your best guy for the 9th when you may need him in the 6th to stop a rally.
Good Luck
BTW: I've put 12.32mil into my pen, by far the most in the league (Holland, Gott, Howe, Eichhorn, Murphy & O'Neal)
You only need one of them. Keep Howe, Eichhorn, Murphy and upgrade elsewhere. You can free 6m in this deal. Thats an all-star player. Post a link to you team for more advice.
- YountFan
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- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
Just my 2 cents.
by YountFan » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:03 pm
Drop Holland and Gott and get M Cear (excelelnt for Tiger), D Bair or W Fraser. You have good starter, so save on RP.
Use the money to get DeCinces at 3b. 2 MVP cards and 2 good cards, 1 not so good. Or Play Mitchell ay 3b and get Oglivie and his awesome BP # power and another leftie
Keep near $1 million in cash for inseason move, so you don't have to make moves your rather not make.
Just my 2 cents.
YF
Use the money to get DeCinces at 3b. 2 MVP cards and 2 good cards, 1 not so good. Or Play Mitchell ay 3b and get Oglivie and his awesome BP # power and another leftie
Keep near $1 million in cash for inseason move, so you don't have to make moves your rather not make.
Just my 2 cents.
YF
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- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
by Outta Leftfield » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:22 pm
One reason that a lot of guys go for cheap bullpens in the 80s is the mystery card. In ATGII, for example, what you see is what you get and none of the .50M guys are going to be very good. You more or less have to pay for it if you want a good bullpen.
On the other hand, in the 80's it's a different story. First of all, the cheapest bullpen guys are fundamentally better players (which is one reason why they cost .75M instead of .50M). They're better than in other leagues because they had at least five substantial seasons in the majors and you don't last in the majors for five seasons without haveing at least some level of ability. (You'll find this also in the sub position players, who can often play a major role on your team.)
Secondly, the pricing system is a bit wonky--it doesn't always reflect real value. Some .75M to 2M RPs are underpriced and other more expensive guys are overpriced. Moreover, here are basically enough cheap RPs to go around--once everybody's made their picks, post-waivers and frenzy, there aren't many good, cheap RP's left, but every vet tends to have two or three on their team.
Then, there's the mystery card. The good .75M to 2M RPs tend to have perhaps three good to excellent years on their cards. That's not much different than the more expensive pitchers. Only Eck and Henke and maybe a couple of others have nothing but good years. So the tendency in the '80s is to go for a somewhat cheaper bullpen, let HAL guide you to the pitchers in good years (he'll use them more), and then promote them to the leading roles. This is actually a bit like managing in real life, and it makes each year different.
Here's an example of a good cheap bullpen, in a HR park, too--Riverfront. This is actually my best bullpen ever, so I'm exaggerating a bit--you're not going to get this every time--but it illustrates the point:
http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/80s/team/team_other.html?user_id=52599
On the other hand, in the 80's it's a different story. First of all, the cheapest bullpen guys are fundamentally better players (which is one reason why they cost .75M instead of .50M). They're better than in other leagues because they had at least five substantial seasons in the majors and you don't last in the majors for five seasons without haveing at least some level of ability. (You'll find this also in the sub position players, who can often play a major role on your team.)
Secondly, the pricing system is a bit wonky--it doesn't always reflect real value. Some .75M to 2M RPs are underpriced and other more expensive guys are overpriced. Moreover, here are basically enough cheap RPs to go around--once everybody's made their picks, post-waivers and frenzy, there aren't many good, cheap RP's left, but every vet tends to have two or three on their team.
Then, there's the mystery card. The good .75M to 2M RPs tend to have perhaps three good to excellent years on their cards. That's not much different than the more expensive pitchers. Only Eck and Henke and maybe a couple of others have nothing but good years. So the tendency in the '80s is to go for a somewhat cheaper bullpen, let HAL guide you to the pitchers in good years (he'll use them more), and then promote them to the leading roles. This is actually a bit like managing in real life, and it makes each year different.
Here's an example of a good cheap bullpen, in a HR park, too--Riverfront. This is actually my best bullpen ever, so I'm exaggerating a bit--you're not going to get this every time--but it illustrates the point:
http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/80s/team/team_other.html?user_id=52599
- Outta Leftfield
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- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
Counterpoint Splashed with a Touch of Agreement.
by bjs73 » Mon Mar 06, 2006 9:25 pm
[b:e83f802040]Shaken, not stirred...[/b:e83f802040]
For every point there is a counterpoint. I actually like spending some money on the bullpen corps. I think it is a key ingredient to a winning franchise.
When I first started playing the 80's game, I did what a lot of people do: get as many cheap relievers as possible and try to find that lightning in a bottle. I also employed the strategy of letting HAL lead me to my ace reliever also. While it bears merit as a strategy in general, it does leave you wide open for misinterpreting the data that you get; especially early in the season.
A long time ago a wise 80's veteran, Sykes25, revealed what he did with his own bullpen management in the 80's game. He would set his relief corps up from preseason to maximize their effectiveness based on their strengths. There are a number of relievers out there that you can hedge your bets on: Donnie Moore will always be more effective against LH hitting for instance. Ken Dayley will mostly be more successful against RH hitting. Willie Hernandez will almost always eat LH hitting alive. Etc.
Therefore, setting your bullpen up from the beginning of the season for optimal effectiveness only makes sense. Problem is that there are also a number of relievers that vary: B. Dawley is one. He can be effective against RH hitting in some years and LH hitting in other years. The only thing you can do is sit back and wait for the stats to roll in.
Problem is that HAL isn't as smart as you are and will fail in hooking a reliever before he reaches his max endurance if the card is left unchecked. This has consequences of its own when W. Hernandez comes in and strikes out D. Strawberry but then is left in the game to face M. McGwire. :x Then when that data starts rolling in, you might be led to cut a reliever loose, based on his stats. Problem with that is you think you're making a good decision when you actually might be letting go of a good card.
My best current example of this is: [url=http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/80s/team/team_other.html?user_id=69639]All Natural Synthetics featuring Todd Worrell.[/url] He's a guy that can be effective against RH hitters in some years and LH hitters in others. I decided to not hedge any bets on him in preseason and left him unchecked. Well, he got rocked early in the season and still hasn't quite recovered from it. Just when I was about to pull the trigger on that chap, he got injured. Turns out that I've got his 1986 card: 2.08 ERA with a 1.23 WHIP. He's a 5R in that year and HAL (with my permission) had misused him most of the year. However, now that I know better, I have him set for:
Avoid Lefties
Quick Hook
Don't use before the 6th inning
1-2 innings max
He's been very effective since then using those settings. Pitcher injuries are a rare event though and they don't always clearly reveal exactly which card you have. Therefore, the stats are the only thing you can go by most of the time. If you let HAL run the show, you [i:e83f802040]might[/i:e83f802040] be led to some false conclusions. My advice is wherever possible, hedge your bets on your pitchers from the start of the season, using the majority of the card platoon data available as your guide. [i:e83f802040]Then, after the season starts and the data starts rolling in,[/i:e83f802040] let the splits rule your decision making. Maybe you guessed wrong on the platoon data? Reverse it and wait for more data to roll in.
As far as I'm concerned, I like having a true closer that I can put my confidence in from the very beginning. If given the option, I'll find a way to put Eckersley on my team every single time. Problem with that is I do so knowing that I'll have to compromise in other areas. That is something I have found that I can live with doing after a number of seasons in this game. If not, Eckersley, then I'll shell out the bucks on someone else like Sutter to the job.
The good news about the 80's game? You don't have to worry about "Closer's Endurance" like in the 2005 format. The two inning save is alive and doing well here in the 80's game. So go ahead and plan for it.
I agree with YountFan that the save stat has been greatly "cheapened" here in the last 15 years and *almost* means nothing anymore with 1 inning saves and being up by 3 runs becoming the norm. However, being able to "seal the deal" at the end of a game is quite the real deal in my opinion. (I'm a Cubs fan so watching LaTroy Hawkins blow save after save the previous few years was an absolute nightmare.) I like an effective closer in real life and I like one in the simulation market as well.
I'll also top it all off with some mid-tier relievers (1-3 million) whenever possible. Lastly, I'll round it all off with some cheap role relievers: right handed specialists and left hand specialists. The price tag for this setup always means that I've compromised elsewhere.
Does it always work out? Not always. However, it does allow me to field competitive teams time and again. I've only had "2" 100 win teams but I've strung together many solid winning teams and that is what I always aim to do.
[b:e83f802040]Another wise 80's veteran, name YountFan, once said:[/b:e83f802040]
[quote:e83f802040]There are 100,000,000 different ways to play this game. Experiment and find what work for you.[/quote:e83f802040]
Indeed. That is the constant. That's why we keep coming back to the 80's format. It's the best thing out there.
The point of this long drawn out post isn't to rebutt what anyone else has said to this point. I just wanted to give a chance to express the opposite point of view on the subject so you can see the variations in managing styles out there and how all of them lead to the same outcome: winning franchises time and again.
Experimentation is the key. Getting all of the advice and taking that which works for you is essential.
Good luck.
For every point there is a counterpoint. I actually like spending some money on the bullpen corps. I think it is a key ingredient to a winning franchise.
When I first started playing the 80's game, I did what a lot of people do: get as many cheap relievers as possible and try to find that lightning in a bottle. I also employed the strategy of letting HAL lead me to my ace reliever also. While it bears merit as a strategy in general, it does leave you wide open for misinterpreting the data that you get; especially early in the season.
A long time ago a wise 80's veteran, Sykes25, revealed what he did with his own bullpen management in the 80's game. He would set his relief corps up from preseason to maximize their effectiveness based on their strengths. There are a number of relievers out there that you can hedge your bets on: Donnie Moore will always be more effective against LH hitting for instance. Ken Dayley will mostly be more successful against RH hitting. Willie Hernandez will almost always eat LH hitting alive. Etc.
Therefore, setting your bullpen up from the beginning of the season for optimal effectiveness only makes sense. Problem is that there are also a number of relievers that vary: B. Dawley is one. He can be effective against RH hitting in some years and LH hitting in other years. The only thing you can do is sit back and wait for the stats to roll in.
Problem is that HAL isn't as smart as you are and will fail in hooking a reliever before he reaches his max endurance if the card is left unchecked. This has consequences of its own when W. Hernandez comes in and strikes out D. Strawberry but then is left in the game to face M. McGwire. :x Then when that data starts rolling in, you might be led to cut a reliever loose, based on his stats. Problem with that is you think you're making a good decision when you actually might be letting go of a good card.
My best current example of this is: [url=http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/80s/team/team_other.html?user_id=69639]All Natural Synthetics featuring Todd Worrell.[/url] He's a guy that can be effective against RH hitters in some years and LH hitters in others. I decided to not hedge any bets on him in preseason and left him unchecked. Well, he got rocked early in the season and still hasn't quite recovered from it. Just when I was about to pull the trigger on that chap, he got injured. Turns out that I've got his 1986 card: 2.08 ERA with a 1.23 WHIP. He's a 5R in that year and HAL (with my permission) had misused him most of the year. However, now that I know better, I have him set for:
Avoid Lefties
Quick Hook
Don't use before the 6th inning
1-2 innings max
He's been very effective since then using those settings. Pitcher injuries are a rare event though and they don't always clearly reveal exactly which card you have. Therefore, the stats are the only thing you can go by most of the time. If you let HAL run the show, you [i:e83f802040]might[/i:e83f802040] be led to some false conclusions. My advice is wherever possible, hedge your bets on your pitchers from the start of the season, using the majority of the card platoon data available as your guide. [i:e83f802040]Then, after the season starts and the data starts rolling in,[/i:e83f802040] let the splits rule your decision making. Maybe you guessed wrong on the platoon data? Reverse it and wait for more data to roll in.
As far as I'm concerned, I like having a true closer that I can put my confidence in from the very beginning. If given the option, I'll find a way to put Eckersley on my team every single time. Problem with that is I do so knowing that I'll have to compromise in other areas. That is something I have found that I can live with doing after a number of seasons in this game. If not, Eckersley, then I'll shell out the bucks on someone else like Sutter to the job.
The good news about the 80's game? You don't have to worry about "Closer's Endurance" like in the 2005 format. The two inning save is alive and doing well here in the 80's game. So go ahead and plan for it.
I agree with YountFan that the save stat has been greatly "cheapened" here in the last 15 years and *almost* means nothing anymore with 1 inning saves and being up by 3 runs becoming the norm. However, being able to "seal the deal" at the end of a game is quite the real deal in my opinion. (I'm a Cubs fan so watching LaTroy Hawkins blow save after save the previous few years was an absolute nightmare.) I like an effective closer in real life and I like one in the simulation market as well.
I'll also top it all off with some mid-tier relievers (1-3 million) whenever possible. Lastly, I'll round it all off with some cheap role relievers: right handed specialists and left hand specialists. The price tag for this setup always means that I've compromised elsewhere.
Does it always work out? Not always. However, it does allow me to field competitive teams time and again. I've only had "2" 100 win teams but I've strung together many solid winning teams and that is what I always aim to do.
[b:e83f802040]Another wise 80's veteran, name YountFan, once said:[/b:e83f802040]
[quote:e83f802040]There are 100,000,000 different ways to play this game. Experiment and find what work for you.[/quote:e83f802040]
Indeed. That is the constant. That's why we keep coming back to the 80's format. It's the best thing out there.
The point of this long drawn out post isn't to rebutt what anyone else has said to this point. I just wanted to give a chance to express the opposite point of view on the subject so you can see the variations in managing styles out there and how all of them lead to the same outcome: winning franchises time and again.
Experimentation is the key. Getting all of the advice and taking that which works for you is essential.
Good luck.
- bjs73
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
For what it's worth...
by Paul5757 » Mon Mar 06, 2006 10:06 pm
Of the top teams in the record book, most had bullpens of around $6 million. The 110-win team had a bp of slightly more than $8 million, while the other 110-win team balanced that out with a bullpen of around $4 million. All the others were around $6 million. The most expensive reliever used by any of these teams was Goose at $2.8 million.
- Paul5757
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
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