total at bats and injuries: question

[generationm1]

I know this has been addressed before, but the question is:

My player was injured for [b:ecef8d6732]one more game[/b:ecef8d6732].

In the 3 years that are still in play, my player had 677 total at bats, 670 total at bats, and 642 total at bats.

I know that one can't have more than 3 days of injury once 600 at bats is reached. What is the next level, 650, 675, or 700 where the player can only be injured for the rest of that game?

Are all 3 of these years still in play? Does a one game injury eliminate any of those years? Thanks for the help.

[LMBombers]

I believe that it is 680 PA for only getting the remainder of the game at the most. If that is true then your 1 game injury does not rule out any of those years.

[The Senators]

I had been hearing 660---now it's 680?

[latertaters]

680 abs and over, injury is that game only...600 thru 679...3 games or less...pitcher injury over 3 games missed, means less than 200 innings pitched in that year.....hope this helps...

[LMBombers]

[quote:643da228ee="latertaters"]680 abs and over, injury is that game only....[/quote:643da228ee]

It is not ABs but PA (Plate Appearances) which is calculated by TSN as AB+BB.

[BDWard]

I've been wanting to comment on the injury calculation for a long time and now may be the best opportunity to do so. First, let me say that the way injuries are calculated now is a big improvement over the way injuries were originally calculated in the board game in the not too distant past. Under that injury system, any player was eligible to be injured for up to 15 games per injury, even one who played in all 162 games! Some time ago Strato revised it's injury policy where a player who played in all his team's games no longer had an injury on his card. In other words, if he wasn't injured during the real baseball season and didn't miss a game, he could no longer get injured in Stratomatic. Further, if a player was merely "rested" a few games, but had the requisite number of plate appearances (defined by Strato as AB + BB), 680, while an injury would appear on his card, he could only be injured for the rest of the game. The next injury cut off, as LMBombers so astutely notes in the previous post, is 600 PA. A player with 600 or more PA but less than 680 PA can only be injured a max of 3 games per injury. While such a system isn't perfect, as I previously stated, it's a big improvement over the original system, where any player could be injured for as many as 15 games per injury. However, while I know that the injury line must be drawn somewhere, using only AB + BB to calculate plate appearances unfairly discriminates against players who get HBP and/or sacrifice a lot. For example, in the ATG III & IV games, using TSN's definition of PA for the 1971 Willie Stargell yields the following result:

511 AB + 83 BB = 594 PA

which makes Stargell eligible to be injured up to 15 games EVERY TIME HE GETS INJURED because he is a mere 6 PA short of 600! In other words, because of a shortage of just 6 PA, assuming normal probability, over the course of a 162 game season, Stargell will likely be injured 3 times, up to 45 games total, where if he had just 6 more PA, he would be subject to only 9 games total, a max of 3 games per injury!

But it gets even better! MLB includes HBP and sacrifices in its definition of PA. According to Baseballreference.com, in 1971 Stargell had 606 PA, calculated as follows:

511 AB + 83 BB + 7 HBP + 5 Sac Flies = 606 PA

The above example shows just how arbitrary the injury system can be. Can you imagine losing Stargell to a 15 game injury, who regularly pounds out 50+ HRs with 120+ RBI in the ATG game, in the heat of the pennant race, because TSN didn't give him credit for his 7 HBP because it uses a different formula to calculate PA than MLB (forgetting for the moment about sac flies), even though HBP appears on his Strato card? Worse yet, in the ATG games, the player salary structure is such that benches are notoriously thin, even with the $100 mil cap (another gripe, which will be saved for yet another post), so Stargell's replacement is likely to be a minimum salary player like Glenn Burke or Hal Jeffcoat, neither of whom could hit a HR in a phone booth!

A similar example in the 80's mystery card game is Kevin McReynolds. In his best season, 1988, where he was 3rd in NL MVP voting, McReynolds PA numbers were as follows:

552 AB + 38 BB + 4 HBP + 1 Sac bunt + 5 Sac Flies = 600 PAs

McReynolds played in 147 of his team's 162 games that year, yet could be injured for 15 games per injury in Stratomatic because Strato uses a different definition for PA, counting only the AB + BB (which for Strato purposes gives McReynolds 590 PA, not the 600 MLB gives him) than MLB. That hardly seems fair.

I'm sure there are numerous other examples of players who were denied credit for their HBP and sac PA and had their injury eligibility status negatively impacted as a result.

There are other problems with the injury system as well, especially in the ATG game. For example, the injury cutoffs for PA and IP are the same across the board for all players, which on the surface seems fair, until one considers that many, if not most, of the ATG players had seasons based on 154 games, not 162. The result is that a player in a 154 game season who played in most of his team's games has greater injury possibilities than his 162 game counterpart by virtue of having roughly 30 less plate appearance opportunities for position players or 2 less starts for pitchers because of a season that is 8 games shorter. See for example, Ted Kluszewski in the ATG IV game. For Strato PA purposes, in a 154 game season, in which he played in 153 games, Big Klu's 1955 numbers are:

612 AB + 66 BB = 678 PA

If Big Klu, who played in all but one of his team's game and batted 3rd or 4th all season in a potent Reds lineup, couldn't make 680 PA, then who could in a 154 game season?

Of course, the story doesn't end there. Using the PA formula used by MLB, Big Klu actually had 686 PA:

612 AB + 66 BB + 4 HBP + 4 Sac Flies = 686 PA

Unfortunately for Klu's Strato managers, Klu gets the double whammy of a shorter season and a failure of Strato to take HBP and sac flies into account in calculating PA for injury purposes.

Pitcher injuries is a bigger problem area. Again, while the 200 inning threshold is an improvement over the old system and a three game injury has no impact on a starting pitcher, a good relief pitcher could pitch in as many as half his team's games and not meet the 200 inning requirement and thus be subject to a 15 game injury. Can you imagine losing your closer for 15 games in a pennant race? Some tweaking is obviously needed here.

Of course, it almost goes without saying that a player could be on a major league roster the entire season in a reserve or platoon role with no trips to the DL and suffer from not even so much as a hang nail yet be subject to a 15 game injury because, even though he was completely healthy, he didn't get the PA needed to avoid such. There's got to be a better way.

Also, although rare, some 70's and 80's mystery cards use the 1981 strike split season as a possible year. Most teams played around 110 games that season, which obviously had a huge impact on AB and IP that year. A player could easily have played in all his team's games that year and topped out at about 480 PA, well short of the 600 & 680 thresholds, and thus be unfairly subject to a 15 game injury.

With today's technology and extent and depth of stats, it should be fairly easy to come up with a more equitable system.

Thanks for giving me a chance to get on the injury soapbox. I apologize for the length of this injury rant. Thanks for hanging in there and reading it.

May the Strato gods smile upon you. - Bernie W

[voovits]

Very well put Bernie. I especially like hearing someone stick up for my all-time favorite player, Kevin McReynolds.

Though I do agree with you, the biggest issue I see here is that Strat-O-Matic never releases HBP, sac fly or sac bunt info on the hitters cards, so that makes it very difficult to tailor the rule to include those stats. It would be pointless to start releasing cards with those stats now. I also have a feeling that it's a lot harder than you may think to tailor specific injury rules to specific players who had seasons where they played fewer games.

What I think can and should be changed is the injury rule for relief pitchers. no true reliever will reach that cutoff to avoid a long injury. The only problem that arises is what to do with starter/relief pitchers, their IPs generally fall somewhere in the middle between pure starters and pure relievers. Do they need even a different set of rules?

I think the best method of injury is, if anyone has played the CDROM game, the super advanced injury system that is specific to the computer game. I don't know how the computer calculates it, but basically if an injury is rolled one of 4 things could happen.
1. Nothing happens, batter remains in the game
2. Batter is forced to leave the game but can play the next game
3. Batter in injured for 15 games (equivalent to the 15 day DL)
4. (Very, very rare) Batter is injured for 60 games (60 day DL)

This is the most realistic in my opinion. You don't see batters go on the 3 day DL, that can't happen in baseball. To my knowledge the game shows no biased to the number of plate appearances or IPs either which is realistic as well. A broken wrist does not care if it's on a player who had 600 plate appearances or 60, it's going to keep him out until it heals. Just because a player avoided injury in the season he played in does not mean he'd be immune to getting hurt if the season was replayed.

[BDWard]

Voovits, thank you for the kind words. The things that I've learned from reading your posts have given me a better understanding of the computer game and have helped me be a better manager. Kudos to you and others such as LMBombers, YountFan, Jimmy C, imc316, chess 2899, Panzer Ace and countless others too numerous to list who are willing to selflessly share their immense knowledge for the good of the online gaming community. I knew from reading your posts over the last few months since I began playing Strato online that mentioning McReynolds would flush you out of the weeds! :lol:

Your comments on injuries are well taken. I agree that relief pitchers probably need a different set of rules, since they usually don't meet the 200 inning threshold and to subject them to a possible 15 game injury as a result is unfair. Of course, the counter argument to such is that in a DH league, they face fewer batters than starters, thus facing the DH less often, and have a corresponding lesser chance of being injured. They also have a lesser chance of being injured in a non-DH league, as they would bat less often than a starting pitcher. Perhaps it all evens out in the end. Insofar as injuries go to starter/relievers, they should probably receive the benefit of any less onerous injury system that is eventually contemplated for relief pitchers, unless of course, they pitched more than 200 innings, whereupon they can be treated as starters for injury purposes.

I do disagree with you though, as to the best method of injury calculation being the one used in the CD ROM game, which seems to be a return to the 15 game injury, or worse yet, 60 game injury, regardless of games played, PA or IP. Yikes! :shock:

I think in considering the injury issue it is important to view Stratomatic within its historical context. First and foremost, Stratomatic is a game that prides itself on alleged "statistical accuracy". One doesn't have to read very far in Strato's promotional materials or advertisements before coming across that term or something similar.

Unlike real baseball, since position players in Strato never get tired or need rest or a day off, there is little, if any, incentive for a Stratomatic manager to sit his team's best player at a position, unless of course it is to get a platoon advantage. Taking the 70's Reds as an example, why would any Strato manager in his right mind EVER sit Joe Morgan, Dave Concepcion or Johnny Bench to play Darrel Chaney or Bill Plummer? It just wouldn't happen.

So, Stratomatic developed the injury concept (long before the 70's Reds, cited only as an example to demonstrate the problem), partially to combat the above problem, even though it likely would be the first to concede that the vast majority of games missed by players over the course of a season were not due to disabled list (DL) types of injuries, but were to give a player a day off (such as the common practice of resting a catcher in the second game of a double header or on a day game that followed a night game), gain a platoon advantage, gain an advantage against a particular pitcher, give a player a chance to recover from being hit by a pitch, give a player a chance to recover from a minor "day to day" injury, give a player a chance to nurse a hangover, give a slumping player a chance to clear his mind, give a player a chance to sit out a suspension, etc, etc. Over the course of a season the average starting position player who made no trips to the DL would probably miss 10-20 games due to the above and other reasons. The Strato injury concept, while not perfect, helped solve the problem set forth above. (Since pitchers are less likely to get injured than position players, Strato addressed the overuse/abuse problem of star pitchers by creating the "endurance factor", but I'll save that commentary for another post.)

In the late 70s or early 80s the gaming community clamored for a change to the injury system, arguing that it was unfair for a player to be subject to an injury who never missed a game during the regular season, that it was unfair to injure a player for as many as 15 games per injury who missed only a handful of games during the regular season and that it was unfair to have a player who was never on the DL miss games in chunks of up to 15 games when usually he missed no more than a game or 2 at a time over the course of the season. Although somewhat slow to respond, Stratomatic eventually instituted the injury system that remains in place today. I'm already on record as saying that it is a big improvement over the old system, but is in need of some tweaking.

Voovits, given the above history of the game and its devotion to statistical accuracy, I must respectfully disagree with your position that every player should be subject to injury. If a player missed no games due to injury and thus played in all of his team's games, he should no more have an injury on his card than a player should have a HR on his card though he hit none during the regular season, although I understand the argument that any player with a bat in his hand is dangerous (although not always for the right reasons. Just ask Juan Marichal and Johnny Roseboro). Strato rigorously adheres to its no HRs during the season, no HRs on the card rule, even though there have been some fairly notable instances of players homering in the post season who hit no HRs during the regular season. Scott Podsednik, Ozzie Smith and Mickey Lolich come immediately to mind. Why should injuries be treated any differently? Further, if a player played in most of his teams games, he should not be subject to a lengthy injury any more than a player who hit 5 HRs in 600+ AB should have the same chance of hitting a HR as a 35 HR hitter. Also, when Strato created the injury concept, there was just the 21 day disabled list, not the 15 day DL in use today, so any correlation between the 15 game injury and 15 day DL is purely coincidental.

While I understand that there is no 3 day DL, we've all heard of a player temporarily out of the lineup with a minor injury as being "day to day". Since there are far more minor injuries and other reasons as set forth above (that are nonetheless included in the injury calculation) that could keep a player out of the lineup for a game or 2 than there are 15 game injuries, the all or nothing concept of injuries claimed to be used in the CD ROM game is, in my mind, completely unrealistic and, moreover, gives an unfair advantage to teams fortunate enough to be on the schedule during a lengthy injury. Unlike real baseball, where a non-DL player may get a day off here or there against a weak opponent a few times over the course of a season resulting in 10-20 missed games at the manager's discretion, under the Strato injury system, games are missed consecutively, in some cases as many as 15, regardless of the opponent and the manager has no discretion as to when a player sits. Of course, in some cases, there are actually players who miss significant time due to serious injuries and I have no problem with those players being subject to 15 game or longer injuries as befits the situation.

I guess my biggest beef with the Strato injury system is that it does an extremely poor job in differentiating between players who miss games for non-injury related reasons and those who are injured. To Strato, a missed game is a missed game due to an injury. I have a problem with that.

At some point, there will have to be a split between the board game rules and computer game rules to take advantage of technological advances. Regarding injuries, one such alternate method would be to have a non DLed player's performance diminish if too many consecutive games are played, similar to the way clutch hitting or a pitcher's endurance rating is currently used. I'm not sure how this "overuse factor" for position players could ever be measured or quantified, but I'm sure there are lots of smart people out there who have some brilliant ideas. That way, as the overuse threshold is approached, a manger can chose when to rest a player, and could do so several times over the course of a season as necessary, rather than have an arbitrary lengthy injury imposed upon him at an inopportune time (is there ever really a good time for an injury?) for a player who had no serious injuries and missed no more than a handful of games during the season.

I'd also like to see injured players be available for limited pinch hitting duty, as often happens in MLB.

My fingers are injured from all this typing! I'm going on the forum DL! :lol:

Sorry for this lengthy post. Lately, my posts always end up longer than intended. Thanks for hanging in there long enough to read it.

May the Strato gods smile upon you. - Bernie W

[entropy8686]

unless injury concerns(like ab+bb) are a variable in how much a players salary is, i think I'd side with voovits, but maybe with something like having injuries on easier rolls on players who were habitually injured throughout their career(like lynn in the 80's who has rolls on the 3's and 11's rather than the 2's and 12's). But yes it would be ridiculous to have a player who never got injured in real life to get injured for 60 games... but this is a sim game after all, not a reinactment of what actually happened. Just my 2 cents.

[voovits]

Very interesting discussion going on here. There are a few things I need to clarify and a few points I need to make.

First thing is that there may be a greater or lesser chance of getting that 15 day injury based on plate appearances, but I just don't know. Strat does not divulge the specifics to their super advanced injury rules, so if there is a difference based on at bats, I have not noticed.
If you have the CDROM game and you're interested in statistical accuracy, they have a game option that allows for that.
You can install each individual season that they have set up for it (every year from at least the mid 90's and later and maybe some older redone seasons, but I'm not 100% sure) to play in "as played" mode. basically what that is, is the teams start with their rosters they had at the beginning of the season. The game then as the season progresses will mimic each and every transaction that occurred during that season and apply it to the rosters, including trades, promotions or demotions to the minors, injuries and suspensions. There are no random injuries, injury rolls on the players cards are ignored. If the player got injured on 7/4 and was out until 8/11, the player will not be available to be used on your roster during those dates. Likewise if a player got sent down to the minors or got suspended. Whoever the team called up as a replacement will be on the roster instead and you can't make any roster moves of your own to compensate. Likewise when a trade occurred the players swap teams on the exact date of the trade. The players card will change to the card the player has on the proper team as well (usually traded players have 3 cards, one from his original team, one from the traded team and 1 that compiles both teams.)
If you're looking for statistical accuracy, then this is for you, and there is no need to worry about random injuries happening either.
I have 16 different seasons for the CDROM game, so what I do is take a somewhat random distribution of players from all the seasons combined and create my own draft leagues out of them. naturally when you do that, you can throw statistical accuracy out the window, similarly, you can't reasonably expect statistical accuracy with the online game either.
So basically with accuracy throw out the window, the super advanced injury system is the way to go. A broken arm could happen to anyone, and he'll be out for a while. Just because he had 700 plate apearances in 2006 doesn't mean he can't get hurt for 15 days in 200X. I'm not playing 2006, nor would I be playing 2006 if I was using just the players from that season. You're also not playing 2006 when you're playing the 2006 game online, you're playing a simulation of what may have happened if Ichiro Suzuki was on the "Langford Sillyhats" along with Travis Hafner, Jim Edmonds, Mike Piazza, etc:
Just because Suzuki didn't get injured for the Mariners doesn't mean he wouldn't get hurt if he played for the Sillyhats.
Also, don't forget there are guys who don't have injuries on their cards at all, so they definitely considered the fact that some people are true iron men and don't miss playing time.
As far as giving a player days off and accounting for the occasional nagging injury, the CDROM game covers that too.
There are 2 settings that I always play with. First is the overusage setting. There are 3 options here.
1. Ignore overusage
2. Try to control overusage
3. Fully control overusage
If you use option 3, a player with 50 ABs on the season will not be allowed to bat more than say 54-56 times.
Option 2 (the one I like to use) allows for a little more leeway without going overboard
Option 1 would allow the 50AB player to go a whole 600+ABs without having to rest. This is totally unrealistic and this is what the online game uses as well. if you want statistical accuracy, I don't hear anyone complaining about how 100AB players start for teams and become stars. I hate this setting in the online game.
Controlling overusage goes hand-in-hand with the other option, which is "Force Daily Injuries". With this option every player has a chance to randomly be forced to sit out a game (very, very small chance) due to a minor injury, making him unavailable. If a player starts to go over the threshold of ABs at that point in the season (indicated by a usage percentage next to the players accumulated ABs) the players chance to get an injury and have to sit out (usually for 1, sometimes 2 games) increases. For example, if you have a player with 500ABs in real life, currently with only 25ABs through the first 50 games of the season, his overusage percentage is going to be around 2-5% I guess as he has hardly been used, and you don't have to worry about a random daily injury for him. If the same player though had 175 ABs, his overusage percentage will probably be over 100% (100% means exact usage) meaning if you don't sit him soon, the game will give him a daily injury forcing you to sit him. So basically the game has the minor nagging injury covered.
one good thing is that you have unlimited transaction between your active roster and your "minor leagues" so you can swap guys in and out as you want.
Also as far as the super advanced injury system, when I say it's very, very rare to have a 60 game injury, I am not exaggerating. In the approximately 15 draft seasons I have done (162 game seasons), along with a few other seasons I've played, I have only encountered a 60 game injury from a player on my team maybe 3-4 times.
Also, it seems more common for a player to miss the game or not be injured at all than even receiving a 15 game injury. That's the good thing about this injury system, more often than not a player actually doesn't sustain an injury. With the system the online game uses, more often than not a player will miss some time.
In my opinion, the online game needs to change their settings to account for the overusage of players. If people want a more realistic game, that's the way to get it.
I think there was something else I wanted to talk about regarding this, but I can't remember for the life of me.


And for the online game, the injury rating a player has I do believe is factored into the players salary.