When is enough really enough?

[GR8YEAR68]

Having read the message boards for any and all imfo on how to better ones team, and chances of winning, some of my basic/absolute must do's are. Solid arms in the OF, and to a lesser degree behind the plate, explain this later. With Mays and Parker @ -5 arms, most teams wisely turn back their baserunning strategy. In so far as the basestealing, my SP are @ minus hold/low error rating, thus I can concentrate more on the catchers "T" rating and get away with just a minus 1 behind the plate. I didn't read ALL the factors on players cards in the past, now as much as possible, without being obsessive. I look at the opp. pitchers and pay close attention to SP hold rating, and some times they punish their catcher badly with +4 or +6 and I just turn the rabbits loose. Those terrible hold ratings undo the great -4 arms. Also, some of those -4 arms have poor "T" ratings, so when Coleman goes for 3rd, and that "T" rating creates a throwing error...
Thats where the -1 or -2 arm with a T2-T6, is a better bet.

[PotKettleBlack]

When I am on, I tweak baserunning/stealing daily, and maybe lineup if things are looking sad offensively (i.e. getting hits, not scoring runs). I try to have a good anti-base stealing catcher, even though I don't think stolen bases matter that much in most ATG 80-200 leagues. Which makes it funny that I tweak my settings. (I also do this funny thing where I like to put the base stealer 5th or 6th in the lineup... it's weird, but it's supported by some sabremetric research).

Find as I get more experienced, I get more reluctant to add/drop players. On the other hand, on my first team I made some mid season changes to wind up with this team:
http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/stratomatic/team/team_other.html?user_id=118499
Downgrading to a fairly weird set of platoons:
Molitor/Tony Phillips
Runnels/Rodney Scott
Roy White / Bill North
Worked okay, not great, but got better with less money. 79 wins on a team that was hovering around .425 when (I pulled the trigger).

[GR8YEAR68]

I don't like to waste extra ABs on non-productive hitters. What I mean is with basestealers/Rabbits, they are generally speaking, one dimentional only good for scoring runs. So in DH leagues, I set my line-up with the likes of Al Simmons/Wade Boggs/Mays/Cepeda, ect ect. Then at the bottom of the order Donnie Bush/Max Bishop. Then we are back to the top of the order for the RBI guys to go to work. Simmons with drive Bush in a ton after Bishop either bunts him up, Bush steals, or they both get on. And having Boggs in the 2 spot serves two purposes. His High OBA, can bunt Simmons up, and all those RBI producing doubles. Then we are back to the heavy guns @ 3/4. Having Bush up in the order say 1st-3rd moves Mays/Cepeda back, taking away 30 or more ABs over the season. Just another take on productive strategy. Also, Bush's SB% may be higher that low in the order, and I really don't need him to try more than 30-50 times any way.

[PotKettleBlack]

[quote:517ab36d2a="theMICK64"]I don't like to waste extra ABs on non-productive hitters. What I mean is with basestealers/Rabbits, they are generally speaking, one dimentional only good for scoring runs. So in DH leagues, I set my line-up with the likes of Al Simmons/Wade Boggs/Mays/Cepeda, ect ect. Then at the bottom of the order Donnie Bush/Max Bishop. Then we are back to the top of the order for the RBI guys to go to work. Simmons with drive Bush in a ton after Bishop either bunts him up, Bush steals, or they both get on. And having Boggs in the 2 spot serves two purposes. His High OBA, can bunt Simmons up, and all those RBI producing doubles. Then we are back to the heavy guns @ 3/4. Having Bush up in the order say 1st-3rd moves Mays/Cepeda back, taking away 30 or more ABs over the season. Just another take on productive strategy. Also, Bush's SB% may be higher that low in the order, and I really don't need him to try more than 30-50 times any way.[/quote:517ab36d2a]

So, I have this working theory for DH clubs, I call it 5 bats/4gloves.
Here is an example team:
http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/stratomatic/team/team_other.html?user_id=274621

The idea was for Foxx, Wilson, Clark, Speaker and Santo to be the bats, with McCoskey, Bush, Freehan, and the original second baseman to be the gloves. Speaker won the gold glove as a bat, but basically 1 range guys up the middle, lesser fielders with superior bats on the margin (Santo was supposed to be really 5th bat and 5th glove... did not warm to him this season, but in retrospect, .296/.380/.487 is a .867 OPS so he and Freehan collectively made a fifth big bat. Bush steals @+76% out of the 6 hole with a .396 OBA to keep the chain rolling.

I like a leadoff with speed but not basestealing. Don't want to take runners away from the big bats (in this case Clark/Foxx/Wilson... 74 doubles and 207 HR between them) since they can move a fast guy home from first with regularity and all posted +.423 OBA, so tough outs and liable to move the runner over.

Disruptive speed (aka a basestealer) doesn't help the big bats score him. But, you put Bush in front of Freehan, McCoskey (bunt A / H&R B) and the second base platoon (Bunt A / H&R B/C), and you can play some smaller ball. Keep the chains moving and get it over the top for the five bats. That's why I don't want a big basestealer in the 9 hole either. The 6 hole keeps him far away from the big bats.

The 4 glove guys, you want to have some set of skills. Either they get on base a lot (and can steal, maybe) or they can bunt and H&R at the highest level, or they can hit for power if not average. value, which allows more money dumped into the 5 bats or even (I know the Mick won't like this) pitching.

Okay, I shouldn't be talking about the success of the Alan Parsons Project, but they are in the finals, tied 1-1 at this moment (against a team I was 0-6 against on the road... there is hope).

Lotta different ways to skin a cat.

[GR8YEAR68]

I don't need $$$ for pitching. I waste it on Super RP. LOL. I have tried SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many combo's on pitching and without going into all variations, here are just two. On a recent Forbes team, Maddux goes 16-23 w/3.78 ERA, Alexander/Waddell/Chesbro all win 21 or more and all lesser ERAs. In a sluggers league Dave Wickersham leads league with 23-10 mark. Go figure??????
I like the idea of tossing Bush down @ 6th in the order, and will try that. Off subject for a moment, but you had 2 of my favorite DH league hitters. Don't you just love the ###s Clark can put up!! Even with the injury risk, he always produces. And dear ole Hack Wilson. Take a moment and pull up his card and compair it to Mays '62 card. Hack is the older/slower Mays, extra walks, afew more doubles, and ALL those natural HRs. Try out this line-up; Higgins/McGraw/Mays/Clark/T.Williams/Wilson- now tell me who drove in the most runs??
Now back on subject, after the examples of how you can count on the hitters coming thru, and how inconsitant the pitchers are, what is the best way to spend $$ on pitching?? No matter what stadium, you can not count on Pete/Maddux dominating,or even winning more than they lose. One strategy I've tried that works, get Pete and 3 other 3MIL or less SP, a solid BP of even RP. Playing in Polo'41 which many call a pitchers Bomber park, for the lack of BPS. Now load up on a bunch of High OBA/HR hitting type's (Eddie Murray, Dave Parker, Eddie Matthews, ect, ect.) Start Pete in the two or three hole and he will win. The three times I've done this he was 23-8/25-7 and 28-7. All teams made play-offs.
I'm now going with 3Finger Brown as a spot starter and Super RP. With Mays, Cepeda, Bush, ect. Gr8 defense up the middle. No automatic outs in the line-up, and being DH, Brown will not be pulled for a PH when HAL wants. Looking forward to the start of this season very much. No, I don't care for putting a lot of money into pitching. You CAN'T depend on it as you can the hitting side. Focus on matching your hitters to your home park, then try to get one or two tough pitchers to match up well vs division opp. Hitting 1st, focus on pitching AFTER draft so as to match up vs division foes. Food for thought... :wink:

[PotKettleBlack]

been thinking about something like the 3FB main starter/main reliever thing since I read the fatigue rules around relievers. Like the idea.

Would like to do something really nuts, which is go with cheap pitchers on quick hooks with hyper aggressive bullpen, so that I could have a pinch hitter ALWAYS hit for the pitcher. Have to extend the BP a little, but spend the pitching money in the bullpen, and don't ever let a pitcher bat. How much better would a team be like that...

[PotKettleBlack]

[quote:7ca4d772b1="theMICK64"]I don't need $$$ for pitching. I waste it on Super RP. LOL. I have tried SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many combo's on pitching and without going into all variations, here are just two. On a recent Forbes team, Maddux goes 16-23 w/3.78 ERA, Alexander/Waddell/Chesbro all win 21 or more and all lesser ERAs. In a sluggers league Dave Wickersham leads league with 23-10 mark. Go figure??????[/quote:7ca4d772b1]
Here's the thing. Wickersham can post an ERA in the 7 range and still win, because he fills what's a natural $3.5-4 M slot at $1.5, so, you can put the extra money in run support. Oh, and he keeps the ball down and gets righties out more often than not. Not every $2M guy works like that. In terms of actual performance, Wickersham teams are .500 with the Wicker Man getting burned to 280-342 and a 7.01 ERA in 5035 IP. Again, you can win with him, but for every 23-10, there is a real stinker.

Randomness happens, and ~25% of a pitcher's card is determined by the fielders behind him.


[quote:7ca4d772b1] I like the idea of tossing Bush down @ 6th in the order, and will try that. Off subject for a moment, but you had 2 of my favorite DH league hitters. Don't you just love the ###s Clark can put up!! Even with the injury risk, he always produces. And dear ole Hack Wilson. Take a moment and pull up his card and compair it to Mays '62 card. Hack is the older/slower Mays, extra walks, afew more doubles, and ALL those natural HRs. Try out this line-up; Higgins/McGraw/Mays/Clark/T.Williams/Wilson- now tell me who drove in the most runs?? [/quote:7ca4d772b1]
Liked Clark a lot, and, as Offense/Defense guys go, not a complete loser in RF.
If I had to figure who gets the RBI's, I'd say Williams/Wilson clean up big. Clark is one of those 80's sluggers who walks a lot, doesn't hit enough to drive in a lot of runs. But he "lengthens the lineup" considerably. And his K's are nice... doesn't advance people, but doesn't ground into double plays that have Williams/Wilson coming up to lead off the inning.

[quote:7ca4d772b1] Now back on subject, after the examples of how you can count on the hitters coming thru, and how inconsitant the pitchers are, what is the best way to spend $$ on pitching?? No matter what stadium, you can not count on Pete/Maddux dominating,or even winning more than they lose. One strategy I've tried that works, get Pete and 3 other 3MIL or less SP, a solid BP of even RP. Playing in Polo'41 which many call a pitchers Bomber park, for the lack of BPS. Now load up on a bunch of High OBA/HR hitting type's (Eddie Murray, Dave Parker, Eddie Matthews, ect, ect.) Start Pete in the two or three hole and he will win. The three times I've done this he was 23-8/25-7 and 28-7. All teams made play-offs. [/quote:7ca4d772b1]
Would be curious to know what the guy who pitched in game 1 finished. If you have Pete #2 and Wickersham #1, I'm guessing Wickersham comes up against other teams' best starter and is overmatched, while Pete overmatches everyone's #2 starter, hence 23-8/25-7/28-7. Of course, you are loading on bats, so #1 starter probably goes 12-14, while #4 starter puts up 16-10, and #3 goes 14-14. Low decision totals for 1, 3, and 4 since I'd load the BP and try and keep those guys from ever throwing more than 6 IP. Pinch hit is the way to go, especially when quality in the BP is so much cheaper than quality starters.
[quote:7ca4d772b1] I'm now going with 3Finger Brown as a spot starter and Super RP. With Mays, Cepeda, Bush, ect. Gr8 defense up the middle. No automatic outs in the line-up, and being DH, Brown will not be pulled for a PH when HAL wants. Looking forward to the start of this season very much. No, I don't care for putting a lot of money into pitching. You CAN'T depend on it as you can the hitting side. Focus on matching your hitters to your home park, then try to get one or two tough pitchers to match up well vs division opp. Hitting 1st, focus on pitching AFTER draft so as to match up vs division foes. Food for thought... :wink:[/quote:7ca4d772b1]

I am trying this in a 100M team I put together for Fenway 71. Will have to wait for it to draft, but put the bats at the drop of the draft list, the BP next, the starters, and then the bench guys. One weak bat (Santiago) and a non-DH league. Will see how it goes.

Some further thought on Brown as Spot Starter/Super RP.
If you work out how starts go over the course of a season, having 3FB do anything other than start game 1 or 2 and make 41 starts is probably suboptimal. Reasons:

1- Innings. He won't pitch 4IP 3 days of 4, so you will get fewer innings using him this way, which diminishes his value. One of the reasons I like Ed Walsh over all other top pitchers is the innings.

2- Optimization. Okay, you counter my claim of innings with a claim that as a reliever, he will pitch higher leverage innings, thereby increasing his value. But i will counter that claim by pointing out that there are cheaper guys to get better performance as RP, so the leverage argument works better for them. In Fenway 71 (working on a team for that, so happen to have the card data handy for that), 3FB's card has a wOBA of .121. As does Bruce Sutter (5.07)for <50% the cost. Sutter (R3-5.69) goes .107, and Eck (R2-4.47) goes .099. So, you can get better guys for the higher leverage stuff. Or, if you like the Spot Start / Super RP concept, why not Babe Adams (S8/R5 - 9.11, wOBA .111) who is cheaper by over 1M and better by a touch, and, if you're really gonna spot start, the * is mostly wasted.

Proper use is to have him start Game 1 or 2, every 4th game, and RP within the relief rules. That's an optimization strategy. I'd do something similar with Babe Adams as well.

Enjoying the meal of thought food. Things to try.