Me, the GM . . . HAL, the manager . . . tanking??

[l.strether]

[quote:f60994e9ef="voovits"]Plain and simply put, it's not tanking. It's a perfectly valid strategy.
As I stated in the post on the other forum, it's actually a widely used strategy in the mystery card game as HAL already knows the season each player is using, and we don't.
I know it's not a mystery card league, but if the strategy is valid there, it should be valid in any other league.
Whether or not it's a [b:f60994e9ef]good[/b:f60994e9ef] strategy in a league like this is another topic of discussion, but it's perfectly legal.[/quote:f60994e9ef]

1.Letting HAL take the rudder is ok at the beginning of a Mystery League; letting him take it the whole season is still tanking, even in a Mystery League.

2.We are not discussing a Mystery league, so your point is irrelevant...what is valid in one kind of league is not necessarily valid in a different one.

3. It is not perfectly legal because, as I discuss in my posts above, it is throwing games, which is tanking.

[gbrookes]

How's this for a twist!

I do the lineup blank, sometimes all blank, sometimes only partly blank, anywhere from 0 to 9 lineup positions filled in or blank.

I change this every night. You can do this by switching your lineup to traditional view, then clicking on clear lineup, then save lineup. I then switch back to the click and drag view, BUT WITH A CLEAN LINEUP SHEET.

Then I fill in the positions I want to fill in.

Why? Because if I am facing Myers (or Burnett) in the same series as Peavey, I can let HAL help me to choose, say Counsel to play 3b vs Peavey, and Hairston to play 3b vs Myers (or Burnett) for my team's advantage in every game!!!!

I leave the lineup completely blank when I also want to get the advantage of changing my lineup batting ORDER to be the most advantageous on each night.

I have gotten to know how HAL chooses his lineups. I understand his math. I don't always agree with it, but I can predict it, I am confortable with it, and I know how to over-ride and put in my own choices if I want to - whic I do when I choose to when it is the best overall strategy choice.

In my view, this strategy can generate 2-3 extra wins in a season.

Tanking? I don't think so, and I certainly hope not. I think this is part of a legitimate game strategy, that is not otherwise available due to having to (otherwise) pick the same lineup for 3 games on one night.

I think it's a pretty cool strategy system, myself!!!

Geoff

[apolivka]

It's a perfectly valid strategy. I've seen TONS to team that would have done much better letting HAL do everything, including draft. :lol:

I play "experiment" teams ALL THE TIME. Some are successful, some aren't. It make the game fun.

[keyzick]

I don't think it's tanking at all, either. There have been occasions where I've also sometimes left 1 or 2 spots blank in my lineup, for HAL to manage...where I trust HAL's ability to start the best options at certain positions v RHP or LHP, without my having to make nightly adjustments.

It's kinda the same idea of when you get an injury, and letting HAL manage the replacement and juggling of your lineup because of that replacement.

Personally, I don't think I'd ever give up control of my whole team, but I definitely would not consider it tanking either.

[Delbird]

[quote:8c541426cd="Artie412"]The idea that this is "Tanking" is ridiculous. You manage your way, let everyone else pay their $25 and manage the way THEY want. We know what tanking is, and letting HAL Take the rudder ain't tanking.[/quote:8c541426cd]

Well said Artie.

[l.strether]

[quote:b0d7a75582="Geoff Brookes"]How's this for a twist!

I do the lineup blank, sometimes all blank, sometimes only partly blank, anywhere from 0 to 9 lineup positions filled in or blank.

I change this every night. You can do this by switching your lineup to traditional view, then clicking on clear lineup, then save lineup. I then switch back to the click and drag view, BUT WITH A CLEAN LINEUP SHEET.

Then I fill in the positions I want to fill in.

Why? Because if I am facing Myers (or Burnett) in the same series as Peavey, I can let HAL help me to choose, say Counsel to play 3b vs Peavey, and Hairston to play 3b vs Myers (or Burnett) for my team's advantage in every game!!!!

I leave the lineup completely blank when I also want to get the advantage of changing my lineup batting ORDER to be the most advantageous on each night.

I have gotten to know how HAL chooses his lineups. I understand his math. I don't always agree with it, but I can predict it, I am confortable with it, and I know how to over-ride and put in my own choices if I want to - whic I do when I choose to when it is the best overall strategy choice.

In my view, this strategy can generate 2-3 extra wins in a season.

Tanking? I don't think so, and I certainly hope not. I think this is part of a legitimate game strategy, that is not otherwise available due to having to (otherwise) pick the same lineup for 3 games on one night.

I think it's a pretty cool strategy system, myself!!!

Geoff[/quote:b0d7a75582]Geoff, Your legitimate proposal is different from handing the reins to HAL the entire season, which is the topic of discussion. This applies to Keyzick's point, too. As to Delbird's unfortunate approbation of Artie's quip, "we" do know what tanking is, and handing the reins to HAL the entire season is tanking.

[The Jerk Store]

My GM skills and HALS managaging led me to an 0-3 start. HAL didn't make any shocking lineup moves, I just got beat. The sweep wasn't your fault HAL, I still trust you!

I didn't feel like I was tanking at all either, not even close. Glad to know that I'm not alone in that thought.

I have let HAL make some minor decisions before . . . like on teams where I have three good SP*'s and three weaker SP/RP's I'll let him decide who starts on every 4th day, or I'll let him decide how to use certain relief pitchers. I've never let him take the reins though, and I'm actually anxious to see how and why he makes some of the decisions he does.

[AeroDave10]

Taking all of the responses from this forum and the ATG forum, I think getowtamypot has a pretty clear consensus to support that what he is doing is NOT tanking, and he should feel comfortable that his strategy choice is not "illegal" or "unethical".

[benchwarmer0924]

[quote:4595be863c="l.strether"]To avoid tanking, you have to try to manage to win and adjust your managing to best prepare your team for each separate team you face. If you let HAL manage everything and do no managing to try to improve your chances according to the differences between opposing teams, you are not playing to win and you are throwing games: you are tanking.

This is not a controversy, it is not entrapment (lol), it is a disagreement for Bernie to settle or not settle. But letting Hal manage the whole season is tanking that season[/quote:4595be863c]

Does that mean that if I draft a 4 man rotation, set my lineup at the beginning of the year and let it ride, and leave strategy settings the same all year that I'm tanking because I'm not adjusting to my opponent nightly in an attempt to win games? I didn't realize when I signed up that I was getting into something that was so demanding of my time.

[gbrookes]

The ultimate question is what is a player's intention. Tanking can only be tanking if it is meant to be tanking. No-one is going to get on someone's case for being a really bad manager - unless it was INTENTIONALLY being bad. Clearly by his own statements the player's intention is NOT to tank. That is the subjective evaluation. By the way, many of us have played with Getowtamypot before (myself included) and I myself have never noticed any evidence of him tanking at all.

Objectively, there are much more sure fire ways to tank than to let HAL choose your lineups!!!!!!!!!!!!! Actually, it would be much more sure fire if you picked your own lineups! You could pick players that were either clearly or marginally sub-optimal. If you WERE that devious, you could do it in a way that would be very effective but almost impossible to prove.

I think that the reason that there are a lot of responses here is that - let's face it - this group is not as large as it might seem at first. The regulars know each other pretty well by now. I have seen what looks like rookies making rookie mistakes, and I have heard of people complaining about what a player is doing, but I haven't seen it myself yet. And I have certainly not seen any disreputable playing from a "veteran" player to this point - I hope I don't, and I doubt that I will.

With respect to the strategy of leaving a lineup blank - by the posts above (myself included) we have all used it. I have heard of people saying that they have done it for a whole season at a time. There are actually strategy benefits that can come from it. It may actually be a net gain in some cases to leave your lineup blank all year long. Is that tanking? Not if you are doing it with the objective of winning games!

Is it unethical or undesirable behavior? I personally don't think so on this point either, and I think the responses are arguing the same way - at least the majority of responses. If you are leaving lineups blank because you like the strategy result better, you are no less managing the team. In fact, based on Getowtamypot's reaction, he is apparently quite involved in his team, based on his disappointment in the opening night sweep loss. I have talked with several managers over the past couple of years who like the roster selection preseason part best, and mostly leave their settings unchanged throughout the year. They follow their team and are its directing mind no less than myself (an insatiable tinkerer). I have chatted with other managers who leave it blank all year long. I personally have no problem with that, based on my understanding (including knowing the players) that that is their way of managing their teams. In fact, it makes my life more difficult as an opposing manager, since their lineup is less predictable!

I would define tanking as a deliberate attempt to lose games. Like I said, there are much more effective ways to do that than leaving your lineup blank - and I am not talking from experience, just from my own logic. I personally don't see anything wrong with it, and I think it is a strategy point that has gone unnoticed more than most strategy points.

BTW, I did look at the lineup. I think that the starters there are pretty clear, and HAL's choices will be more consistent from game to game than on most of my teams! As a matter of gaming curiousity, I would be very interested to see when HAL starts DeJesus versus other lineup options!!!

l.strether, I really enjoyed playing in the same league with you recently. I also enjoy chatting with you. Please take this in a friendly way, which is what I intend. I hope that you continue to be my friend in playing this game online - which I like so ridiculously much!!

:) Geoff

Geoff