When bullpen v.2 was released, it was hailed as an improvement over the old system. While that generally seems true, it has it's troubling quirks. Note that I've read just about EVERYTHING ever written on this message board about bullpen v.2, so I am somewhat knowledgeable in its use. I've been having some bullpen usage issues lately, so I thought I would share those in search of a possible solution.
Last night, my closer, Goose Gossage, was inserted into a game at F0 against a mostly righty hitting team in the 8th inning with a 2 run lead. He promptly surrendered 11 hits and 8 runs in 2 innings and despite a rally, my team lost by 3 runs. Note that "Closer usage" on the team strategy settings was set at "regular", not "maximize", that this was the third game of the series in which Gossage had pitched the previous 2 games at F9, having been removed from the previous game immediately upon falling as a result of a hit by the last batter faced from F9 to F3. Also, other pitchers were available who were at full strength.
While I understand that the various artificial intelligence models for the computer game are a work in progress and that there is no substitute for being able to manage live in real time, a simple tweak would seem to be able to resolve the problem of pitchers being inserted at F0 or other unacceptable level.
I had Gossage set to be removed from the game when the fatigue level reached F4. If he is set to be removed at F4 (or less), why would he be inserted at F0? Although I am no computer expert, it would seem to me to be a simple tweak to have the removal setting also correspond to not being inserted into a game if the pitcher would be inserted at that level or less, unless there were no other pitchers available. Or, alternatively, there could be a separate toggle box that looks like this:
[b:887982a0e4]Don't insert if below [/b:887982a0e4] F__
The real life corollary to this situation is that no manager in his right mind would ever risk injuring his star closer by inserting him into a game when the closer told him he couldn't go because his arm is sore or tired. I find it more than a little ironic that in a game that prides itself on accuracy that the computer manager would insert a pitcher into a game when he is completely gassed.
Another usage issue concerns lefty short relievers. Since ATG6 has so many righty hitters who absolutely crush lefties, my main relievers are usually righties and I attempt to "spot" my cheap and lefty dominant lefty relievers for one or two batters. I've used Dave Roberts and Hassler quite a bit in those roles. I set them as "LH specialist","quick hook", "Avoid RHB", a MAX of 1-2 innings, leave "Don't Rel. B4" blank (to get them out of the game more quickly) and put them at the very bottom of my usage list, as they aren't very good against righty hitters and to use them in any other role besides a lefty specialist is a sure recipe for disaster. Yet despite these settings to limit use, HAL keeps inserting them and leaving them in the game in other situations such as middle relief or late inning crunch time, with disastrous results, even though the pitchers programmed for use in such situations are available and rested. I've seen this happen to other teams as well, mostly with Sambito. What could be causing this? Usually my other relievers are programmed for more than one role, such as middle relief, tied and late, tied and 9th, etc. Could it be that HAL fails to use them because he is "saving" them for use in the other roles?
Finally, I've previously identified this issue, with some acknowledgement of such from other gamers, but no response from TSN, that there seems to be some carryover of the fatigue factor from the pitcher being removed from the game into the relief pitcher being inserted into the game, even though the fatigue factor usually reads F9 for the newly inserted pitcher. From everything that I've read about the fatigue factor, the lower the number, the greater the likelihood of rolling in the hitter's or pitcher's column with the most hits to the point where at F0 virtually every roll will be in the hitter's best column or the pitcher's worst column. I usually set my pitcher's to be relieved at F4. Sometimes the last hit before they are relieved will lower the fatigue rating to F3 or F2 and on occasion I've even seen F0. I've noticed that when a relief pitcher is inserted into the game to replace a tired pitcher, that there seem to be an unusually high number of first batter hits and an even higher percentage of rolls in the batter's best column (which sometimes result in outs). I've tracked this for some time over at least a half dozen seasons and the number of first batter hits is so high as to be statistically significant, leading me to believe that there is a glitch in the program where there is a carryover effect of the fatigue factor to the newly inserted pitcher. Has anyone else noticed this as well?
We all know that it is hard enough to win games. Note that this is not a comment about bad luck, as we've all experienced such and have no control over it, but on the game engine, in particular HAL, not doing what it is allegedly programmed to do, with said failure impacting game outcomes. The oft made argument that it is a level playing field and that the same idiosyncrasies and quirks apply equally to all holds little weight, as not everyone employs the same strategies and thus the impact of the quirks is not equal.
We all know that this is a great game and that TSN and Stratomatic are usually responsive to customers' concerns. With limited resources and time, and competing demands for improvement in the game, here's hoping that improvements to the game engine, and bullpen v.2 in particular, are relatively high on the list of priorities. - Bernie W
Bullpen v.2 needs some tweaks
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Bullpen v.2 needs some tweaks
by BDWard » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:01 pm
Last edited by BDWard on Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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by nevdully's » Thu Jun 23, 2011 4:49 pm
Yes.
[quote:e6c4515ab3][b:e6c4515ab3]The oft made argument that it is a level playing field and that the same idiosyncrasies and quirks apply equally to all holds little weight, as not everyone employs the same strategies and thus the impact of the quirks is not equal.[/b:e6c4515ab3] [/quote:e6c4515ab3]
God Yes! This is quite often just a dismissive way to have reason to be unaccountable.
There is a few simple fixes or additions that would enhance the bullpen. A lefty/righty set up role, and even a third specialist block, (needed more in the higher cap deeper bullpen leagues) just to name a couple...and one maybe a little more complex (for Bernie)...The distinction between "quick hook" (and that needs to be changed in itself) and "avoid" seem to be more married than they should...
I'm all for BPv.3
[quote:e6c4515ab3][b:e6c4515ab3]The oft made argument that it is a level playing field and that the same idiosyncrasies and quirks apply equally to all holds little weight, as not everyone employs the same strategies and thus the impact of the quirks is not equal.[/b:e6c4515ab3] [/quote:e6c4515ab3]
God Yes! This is quite often just a dismissive way to have reason to be unaccountable.
There is a few simple fixes or additions that would enhance the bullpen. A lefty/righty set up role, and even a third specialist block, (needed more in the higher cap deeper bullpen leagues) just to name a couple...and one maybe a little more complex (for Bernie)...The distinction between "quick hook" (and that needs to be changed in itself) and "avoid" seem to be more married than they should...
I'm all for BPv.3
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by BDWard » Thu Jun 23, 2011 6:34 pm
Well said and great ideas for improvement, nev. I wholeheartedly agree that saying that it is a level playing field despite the quirks "is quite often just a dismissive way to have reason to be unaccountable."
One more thing that I'd like to have is the ability to disrupt my opponent's platoons by having an option to follow a righty starter with a lefty reliever or vice versa and then switch back to a pitcher who throws from the same side as the starter, if desired. We often see this done in MLB and it should be a simple tweak to make this an option.
Many gamers have justifiably raised concerns about the proliferation of offense in the ATG series. Tweaking bullpen v.2 to reduce the insertion of fatigued or out of role relief pitchers, reduce the effectiveness of platoons, adding lefty/righty options for the various bullpen roles, eliminate the blurring of the distinction between quick hook and avoid, and eliminate any carryover fatigue effect would not only make the relief pitchers more effective and thus reduce offense stemming from the misuse of relief pitchers, but would give rise to more strategy, more realism, more consistent results and more fun.
Nothing has been more frustrating to gamers than programming HAL to do one thing and having HAL do the exact opposite, resulting in a loss. While such incidents will probably never be completely eliminated, with a little thought they can probably be greatly reduced, enhancing our enjoyment of the game.
One more thing that I'd like to have is the ability to disrupt my opponent's platoons by having an option to follow a righty starter with a lefty reliever or vice versa and then switch back to a pitcher who throws from the same side as the starter, if desired. We often see this done in MLB and it should be a simple tweak to make this an option.
Many gamers have justifiably raised concerns about the proliferation of offense in the ATG series. Tweaking bullpen v.2 to reduce the insertion of fatigued or out of role relief pitchers, reduce the effectiveness of platoons, adding lefty/righty options for the various bullpen roles, eliminate the blurring of the distinction between quick hook and avoid, and eliminate any carryover fatigue effect would not only make the relief pitchers more effective and thus reduce offense stemming from the misuse of relief pitchers, but would give rise to more strategy, more realism, more consistent results and more fun.
Nothing has been more frustrating to gamers than programming HAL to do one thing and having HAL do the exact opposite, resulting in a loss. While such incidents will probably never be completely eliminated, with a little thought they can probably be greatly reduced, enhancing our enjoyment of the game.
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Re: Bullpen v.2 needs some tweaks
by Palanion » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:11 pm
[quote:ea301c4bc4="BDWard"]
Last night, my closer, Goose Gossage, was inserted into a game at F0 against a mostly righty hitting team in the 8th inning with a 2 run lead. He promptly surrendered 11 hits and 8 runs in 2 innings and despite a rally, my team lost by 3 runs. Note that "Closer usage" on the team strategy settings was set at "regular", not "maximize", that this was the third game of the series in which Gossage had pitched the previous 2 games at F9, having been removed from the previous game immediately upon falling as a result of a hit by the last batter faced from F9 to F3. Also, other pitchers were available who were at full strength.[/quote:ea301c4bc4]
As someone who helped test Bullpen v2, I am also pretty knowledgeable on the topic. Unfortunately, you've not included enough information in your scenario. What were the settings of ALL your relief pitchers? What were your other pitching settings? Who had already pitched in relief in that game? And so on. HAL is reacting (mostly) to the settings it is given. While there could have been an anomaly as to how it took the information and made the move, it is more likely that something in your team's settings, plus other factors (like previous usage and on-deck batter(s)), led to HAL's decision.
[quote:ea301c4bc4]
Another usage issue concerns lefty short relievers. Since ATG6 has so many righty hitters who absolutely crush lefties, my main relievers are usually righties and I attempt to "spot" my cheap and lefty dominant lefty relievers for one or two batters. I've used Dave Roberts and Hassler quite a bit in those roles. I set them as "LH specialist","quick hook", "Avoid RHB", a MAX of 1-2 innings, leave "Don't Rel. B4" blank (to get them out of the game more quickly) and put them at the very bottom of my usage list, as they aren't very good against righty hitters and to use them in any other role besides a lefty specialist is a sure recipe for disaster. Yet despite these settings to limit use, HAL keeps inserting them and leaving them in the game in other situations such as middle relief or late inning crunch time, with disastrous results, even though the pitchers programmed for use in such situations are available and rested. I've seen this happen to other teams as well, mostly with Sambito. What could be causing this? Usually my other relievers are programmed for more than one role, such as middle relief, tied and late, tied and 9th, etc. Could it be that HAL fails to use them because he is "saving" them for use in the other roles?[/quote:ea301c4bc4]
Yes. Exactly. If there is a situation that comes up in a game that is not defined by your settings, then HAL is going to bring in a pitcher that either fits the situation or is simply the most available based on the settings.
[quote:ea301c4bc4]Finally, I've previously identified this issue, with some acknowledgement of such from other gamers, but no response from TSN, that there seems to be some carryover of the fatigue factor from the pitcher being removed from the game into the relief pitcher being inserted into the game, even though the fatigue factor usually reads F9 for the newly inserted pitcher. From everything that I've read about the fatigue factor, the lower the number, the greater the likelihood of rolling in the hitter's or pitcher's column with the most hits to the point where at F0 virtually every roll will be in the hitter's best column or the pitcher's worst column. [/quote:ea301c4bc4]
This is not quite accurate. According to SOM (not SN-SOM or Bernie), as a pitcher becomes more fatigued, more rolls become hits. Outs become singles, singles become doubles, etc. In the Super Advanced game, we change all rolls with the at symbol (@) on the pitcher's card to singles. However, in the online and CD-Rom version of the Super Advanced game (with pitch count fatigue), HAL might change a roll of 4-5 gbA to 4-4 SINGLE just to find a SINGLE to be awarded. Or even from 4-4 SINGLE to 1-7 DOUBLE.
[quote:ea301c4bc4]I usually set my pitcher's to be relieved at F4. Sometimes the last hit before they are relieved will lower the fatigue rating to F3 or F2 and on occasion I've even seen F0. I've noticed that when a relief pitcher is inserted into the game to replace a tired pitcher, that there seem to be an unusually high number of first batter hits and an even higher percentage of rolls in the batter's best column (which sometimes result in outs). I've tracked this for some time over at least a half dozen seasons and the number of first batter hits is so high as to be statistically significant, leading me to believe that there is a glitch in the program where there is a carryover effect of the fatigue factor to the newly inserted pitcher. Has anyone else noticed this as well?[/quote:ea301c4bc4]
First, unless you want your RPs to give up extra hits because of fatigue, then leaving all of them to go to F4 is not logical. Maybe a fatigued Dennis Eckersley is better than a rested Turk Lown, but otherwise I would not do that often. If anything, I might wager that my SP is better than many of the situational RPs and thus have my SP go to F4...
To your statistical glitch, I'd love to see the data you collected. I've never noticed this before, but then I'm not sure I've ever looked for it.
Bill
Last night, my closer, Goose Gossage, was inserted into a game at F0 against a mostly righty hitting team in the 8th inning with a 2 run lead. He promptly surrendered 11 hits and 8 runs in 2 innings and despite a rally, my team lost by 3 runs. Note that "Closer usage" on the team strategy settings was set at "regular", not "maximize", that this was the third game of the series in which Gossage had pitched the previous 2 games at F9, having been removed from the previous game immediately upon falling as a result of a hit by the last batter faced from F9 to F3. Also, other pitchers were available who were at full strength.[/quote:ea301c4bc4]
As someone who helped test Bullpen v2, I am also pretty knowledgeable on the topic. Unfortunately, you've not included enough information in your scenario. What were the settings of ALL your relief pitchers? What were your other pitching settings? Who had already pitched in relief in that game? And so on. HAL is reacting (mostly) to the settings it is given. While there could have been an anomaly as to how it took the information and made the move, it is more likely that something in your team's settings, plus other factors (like previous usage and on-deck batter(s)), led to HAL's decision.
[quote:ea301c4bc4]
Another usage issue concerns lefty short relievers. Since ATG6 has so many righty hitters who absolutely crush lefties, my main relievers are usually righties and I attempt to "spot" my cheap and lefty dominant lefty relievers for one or two batters. I've used Dave Roberts and Hassler quite a bit in those roles. I set them as "LH specialist","quick hook", "Avoid RHB", a MAX of 1-2 innings, leave "Don't Rel. B4" blank (to get them out of the game more quickly) and put them at the very bottom of my usage list, as they aren't very good against righty hitters and to use them in any other role besides a lefty specialist is a sure recipe for disaster. Yet despite these settings to limit use, HAL keeps inserting them and leaving them in the game in other situations such as middle relief or late inning crunch time, with disastrous results, even though the pitchers programmed for use in such situations are available and rested. I've seen this happen to other teams as well, mostly with Sambito. What could be causing this? Usually my other relievers are programmed for more than one role, such as middle relief, tied and late, tied and 9th, etc. Could it be that HAL fails to use them because he is "saving" them for use in the other roles?[/quote:ea301c4bc4]
Yes. Exactly. If there is a situation that comes up in a game that is not defined by your settings, then HAL is going to bring in a pitcher that either fits the situation or is simply the most available based on the settings.
[quote:ea301c4bc4]Finally, I've previously identified this issue, with some acknowledgement of such from other gamers, but no response from TSN, that there seems to be some carryover of the fatigue factor from the pitcher being removed from the game into the relief pitcher being inserted into the game, even though the fatigue factor usually reads F9 for the newly inserted pitcher. From everything that I've read about the fatigue factor, the lower the number, the greater the likelihood of rolling in the hitter's or pitcher's column with the most hits to the point where at F0 virtually every roll will be in the hitter's best column or the pitcher's worst column. [/quote:ea301c4bc4]
This is not quite accurate. According to SOM (not SN-SOM or Bernie), as a pitcher becomes more fatigued, more rolls become hits. Outs become singles, singles become doubles, etc. In the Super Advanced game, we change all rolls with the at symbol (@) on the pitcher's card to singles. However, in the online and CD-Rom version of the Super Advanced game (with pitch count fatigue), HAL might change a roll of 4-5 gbA to 4-4 SINGLE just to find a SINGLE to be awarded. Or even from 4-4 SINGLE to 1-7 DOUBLE.
[quote:ea301c4bc4]I usually set my pitcher's to be relieved at F4. Sometimes the last hit before they are relieved will lower the fatigue rating to F3 or F2 and on occasion I've even seen F0. I've noticed that when a relief pitcher is inserted into the game to replace a tired pitcher, that there seem to be an unusually high number of first batter hits and an even higher percentage of rolls in the batter's best column (which sometimes result in outs). I've tracked this for some time over at least a half dozen seasons and the number of first batter hits is so high as to be statistically significant, leading me to believe that there is a glitch in the program where there is a carryover effect of the fatigue factor to the newly inserted pitcher. Has anyone else noticed this as well?[/quote:ea301c4bc4]
First, unless you want your RPs to give up extra hits because of fatigue, then leaving all of them to go to F4 is not logical. Maybe a fatigued Dennis Eckersley is better than a rested Turk Lown, but otherwise I would not do that often. If anything, I might wager that my SP is better than many of the situational RPs and thus have my SP go to F4...
To your statistical glitch, I'd love to see the data you collected. I've never noticed this before, but then I'm not sure I've ever looked for it.
Bill
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by nevdully's » Tue Jun 28, 2011 1:22 pm
[quote:ba2d1b6d55][b:ba2d1b6d55]Oh, and I also agree there should he a lefty setup and a righty setup role - just as they are included in the CD-ROM game.[/b:ba2d1b6d55] [/quote:ba2d1b6d55]
So right I'd say it twice.
So right I'd say it twice.
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by BDWard » Tue Jun 28, 2011 6:49 pm
Bill (Palanion): Thank you for your illuminating post. I use F4 because of a previous post in this forum by tonymiller made when BP v.2 was first released showed virtually no impact on results down to F4. The link to that thread is below:
http://forums.sportingnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=573442
I understand that the sample size is small, but just 4 of my 18 teams using BP v.2 have finished below .500, but 10 of my 13 playoff teams (using both BP v.1 and BP v.2) have been knocked out in the semis, mostly due to bullpen failure. Hmm...., maybe I should program my pitchers for FEWER roles and to get removed @ F6 or F7.
If I read what you said correctly, and it is my experience as well, HAL will bypass a reliever programmed for the given situation and other roles as well (hereinafter referred to as the "correct reliever") and insert a reliever not programmed for the given situation, essentially holding the correct reliever in reserve, if the correct reliever is programmed for multiple roles, even though those other roles may never occur in that game. This seems to be contrary to what we were told about BP v.2, i.e. that the first available reliever for the given situation going down the list from top to bottom would be inserted in the game. In addition, it seems that we were also led to believe that it is better to program more than one pitcher for a given role, just in case the first choice for the role is unavailable. Now it seems as though it is possible to "overprogram" a relief pitcher to the point where it actually causes less use instead of more use.
The more I learn about this game the less I realize that I know. - Bernie W
http://forums.sportingnews.com/viewtopic.php?t=573442
I understand that the sample size is small, but just 4 of my 18 teams using BP v.2 have finished below .500, but 10 of my 13 playoff teams (using both BP v.1 and BP v.2) have been knocked out in the semis, mostly due to bullpen failure. Hmm...., maybe I should program my pitchers for FEWER roles and to get removed @ F6 or F7.
If I read what you said correctly, and it is my experience as well, HAL will bypass a reliever programmed for the given situation and other roles as well (hereinafter referred to as the "correct reliever") and insert a reliever not programmed for the given situation, essentially holding the correct reliever in reserve, if the correct reliever is programmed for multiple roles, even though those other roles may never occur in that game. This seems to be contrary to what we were told about BP v.2, i.e. that the first available reliever for the given situation going down the list from top to bottom would be inserted in the game. In addition, it seems that we were also led to believe that it is better to program more than one pitcher for a given role, just in case the first choice for the role is unavailable. Now it seems as though it is possible to "overprogram" a relief pitcher to the point where it actually causes less use instead of more use.
The more I learn about this game the less I realize that I know. - Bernie W
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by nevdully's » Tue Jun 28, 2011 7:00 pm
[quote:f1e5775c59]The more I learn about this game the less I realize that I know. - Bernie W [/quote:f1e5775c59]
[b:f1e5775c59]Exactly![/b:f1e5775c59]
[b:f1e5775c59]Exactly![/b:f1e5775c59]
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