War On Terror

[gkhd11a]

I will point out that in the Barnstormers championship Petrosian started Tom Glavine and then after inserting switch Glavine for Ed Walsh without penalty. I never thought anything was wrong with that.
Petrosian's changes:

03/28 15 More Credits? added Hahn, Noodles (1903)
03/28 15 More Credits? dropped Cicotte, Eddie (1910)
03/28 15 More Credits? added Medich, Doc (1982)
03/28 15 More Credits? dropped Wickware, Frank (NeL)
03/28 15 More Credits? added Stanley, Fred (1978)
03/28 15 More Credits? dropped Derrick, Claud (1911)
03/28 15 More Credits? added Hartzell, Roy (1909)
03/28 15 More Credits? dropped Myers, Hy (1921)
03/28 15 More Credits? added Wickware, Frank (NeL)
03/28 15 More Credits? dropped Medich, Doc (1982)
03/28 15 More Credits? added Page, Joe (1949)
03/28 15 More Credits? dropped Sutter, Bruce (1977)

Don FESQ made the following changes after that in the same Barnstormers championship after "freezing lineups" This does not take away at all in my mind his championship

03/28 Arlington Aces added Gamble, Lee (1940)
03/28 Arlington Aces dropped Oyler, Ray (1968)
03/28 Arlington Aces added Oyler, Ray (1968)
03/28 Arlington Aces dropped Wilfong, Rob (1982)
03/28 Arlington Aces added Hogg, Bill (1905)
03/28 Arlington Aces dropped Sadecki, Ray (1961)
03/28 Arlington Aces added Allen, Bernie (1964)
03/28 Arlington Aces dropped Weis, Al (1969)
03/28 Arlington Aces added Cash, Norm (1961)
03/28 Arlington Aces dropped Terry, Bill (1929)
my changes GKHD11A
03/28 Ball State Cardinals added Dygert, Jimmy (1909)
03/28 Ball State Cardinals dropped Nieman, Bob (1955)
03/28 Ball State Cardinals added Callison, Johnny (1964)
03/28 Ball State Cardinals dropped Radatz, Dick (1964)
03/28 Ball State Cardinals added Clark, Bobby (1982)
03/28 Ball State Cardinals dropped Kittle, Ron (1986)
03/28 Ball State Cardinals added Greenberg, Hank (1940)
03/28 Ball State Cardinals dropped Jackson, Reggie (1969)

So if the top players playing the most teams in strat do it in the championship of the game, how can it be considered cheating in a regular game

[Rocket Robin Hood]

I never even considered it as a possiblity. I always figured that after the 10 PM roster freeze, any changes would come with a waiver haircut. I think that in the course of a 162 game season, the benefits of completely changing your pitching staff for one series is fleeting at best. If you are going with righties and the first series is in a lefty park, you may win that series with the tactic, but once you shift you lose that advantage and you have to face that situation many times since that team is in your division. Plus HAL doesn't always produce results that match up with the trends over a short period of time.

[nevdully's]

Well I guess as long as the top managers are doing it. :roll:

[nevdully's]

[quote:35e567038d]I always figured that after the 10 PM roster freeze, [b:35e567038d]any changes would come with a waiver haircut.[/b:35e567038d][/quote:35e567038d]

Love that line.

Yes, but they don't...It's not like *All* the other transactions that take place that do come with a waiver haircut.

Some have tried, whether a positive difference maker or not, to use this tactic to their advantage....I define it as poor sportsmanship to say the least, sorta cheating to say the most.

I'm surprised that to many here, cheating, for example, is somehow defined by how successful you are at it, and with it, as opposed to just knowingly and purposely breaking the rules.

So I've learned a couple of things...It's not cheating if you're not too good at it..and it's not anything bad if a couple of the top managers are doing it too.

[Valen]

[quote:99cb48e88b]switch Glavine for Ed Walsh without penalty[/quote:99cb48e88b]
I looked through the list of transactions following this statement but did not see any transaction involving Glavine or Walsh. If he dropped Walsh to add Glavine to his roster after opening series if I am opponent I celebrate for remaining 159 games. If he dropped Walsh for Glavine I celebrate because he just weakened his rotation for the next 159 games and any hitters that allows him to pick up were not wanted by me or they would not have been available to pick up. And now assuming I am quicker than everyone else I get to pick up Walsh.

I cannot speak for Petrosian but seriously doubt his reason for making this last minute change was to gain an advantage. First guess would be he saw a player get dropped he wanted or saw someone on FA list he had previously not noticed and decided to make a change. But whatever the reason see no evidence he was trying to gain an advantage or intentionally circumventing the rules. And in my view no cheating or violating the rules because the rules clearly state for anyone who understands english to read that cap penalty kicks in [b:99cb48e88b]after[/b:99cb48e88b] first game is played. For those who do not understand what after means... :lol:
[url]http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/after[/url]

[Valen]

Regarding the Don FESQ list of transactions...

[quote:020115fe7b]03/28 Arlington Aces dropped Oyler, Ray (1968)
03/28 Arlington Aces added Oyler, Ray (1968)[/quote:020115fe7b]

yeah, dropping and adding the same player. That is a great strategy for gaining an advantage. Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill.
:lol:

Seriously, if this is such a problem there should be better examples than these and better proof someone had intent and planned in advance to time their transactions in such a manner as to gain an advantage regarding regular season results.

Bottom line: I see this as a problem with freezing rosters too early. No need to do that until gametime. If Bernie is asked to do anything for me it would be just that. Rosters are frozen at game time for all games throughout the season.

[nevdully's]

[quote:baaa9051cd]Seriously, if this is such a problem there should be better examples than these and better proof someone had intent and planned in advance to time their transactions in such a manner as to gain an advantage regarding regular season results. [/quote:baaa9051cd]

I agree...But I didn't post those as examples I think charlie did...and I think those particular moves were made for different reasons. (but I'm just guessing) and don't really address my concern or (imo) help my Charlie's point.

But it also seems here even with better examples and a signed confession of intent that there's little concern among the community whether its allowed OR even if it wasn't...

For the record Petro *has talked* to me about doing it with the sole intent to gain that opening night advantage...[b:baaa9051cd][u:baaa9051cd]I don't know if he ever did, or does[/u:baaa9051cd][/b:baaa9051cd]...And I have no bone to pick with him.....It is good to know that if he did or does that means we can all do it. ;)

Actually Valen your point on how the rules read is valid....I wonder though why others have asked for this to be fixed/changed? And then I wonder why Bernie finds it valid enough to agree to this fix/change.


[b:baaa9051cd][u:baaa9051cd]Also and more importantly whether attempting to shine a light on what I consider poor sportsmanship (at the least)....OR bullpen v.3....OR fixing the playoff structure of games 5 and 6 (does anyone remember that?) I've come to realize it just doesn't illicit many responses from more than the same dozen people or so....Point is, good intent, whiny misguided attempt, whatever...I'm a little more invested than most so...since it seems most are fine with things being as they are....then I so be it[/u:baaa9051cd].[/b:baaa9051cd]

[JohnnyBlazers]

I have seen where some guys take advantage of that loophole b/w 10:00pm and when the penalty kicks in after the 1st game is played. The rosters are set for the most part to match up with their division rivals and so forth and I guess some feel they can manipulate a roster when no one is looking to gain an advantage. I can see where it's a problem if team X in your division has all lefty starters and say team Y has all righty hitters and after the 10:00pm deadline and team X swap out their starters for righty pitchers and team Y doesn't counter with a lefty who mashes righties w/o taking a cap hit - that's pretty weak however team X might not match up with the rest of the league so IMO those advantages are negligible. What with the randomness of this game, normalization factors, etc. it doesn't make much of a difference. FWII

[JohnnyBlazers]

[quote:851e1a5d7d="gkhd11a"]I will point out that in the Barnstormers championship Petrosian started Tom Glavine and then after inserting switch Glavine for Ed Walsh without penalty. I never thought anything was wrong with that.
Petrosian's changes:

03/28 15 More Credits? added Hahn, Noodles (1903)
03/28 15 More Credits? dropped Cicotte, Eddie (1910)
03/28 15 More Credits? added Medich, Doc (1982)
03/28 15 More Credits? dropped Wickware, Frank (NeL)
03/28 15 More Credits? added Stanley, Fred (1978)
03/28 15 More Credits? dropped Derrick, Claud (1911)
03/28 15 More Credits? added Hartzell, Roy (1909)
03/28 15 More Credits? dropped Myers, Hy (1921)
03/28 15 More Credits? added Wickware, Frank (NeL)
03/28 15 More Credits? dropped Medich, Doc (1982)
03/28 15 More Credits? added Page, Joe (1949)
03/28 15 More Credits? dropped Sutter, Bruce (1977)

Don FESQ made the following changes after that in the same Barnstormers championship after "freezing lineups" This does not take away at all in my mind his championship

03/28 Arlington Aces added Gamble, Lee (1940)
03/28 Arlington Aces dropped Oyler, Ray (1968)
03/28 Arlington Aces added Oyler, Ray (1968)
03/28 Arlington Aces dropped Wilfong, Rob (1982)
03/28 Arlington Aces added Hogg, Bill (1905)
03/28 Arlington Aces dropped Sadecki, Ray (1961)
03/28 Arlington Aces added Allen, Bernie (1964)
03/28 Arlington Aces dropped Weis, Al (1969)
03/28 Arlington Aces added Cash, Norm (1961)
03/28 Arlington Aces dropped Terry, Bill (1929)
my changes GKHD11A
03/28 Ball State Cardinals added Dygert, Jimmy (1909)
03/28 Ball State Cardinals dropped Nieman, Bob (1955)
03/28 Ball State Cardinals added Callison, Johnny (1964)
03/28 Ball State Cardinals dropped Radatz, Dick (1964)
03/28 Ball State Cardinals added Clark, Bobby (1982)
03/28 Ball State Cardinals dropped Kittle, Ron (1986)
03/28 Ball State Cardinals added Greenberg, Hank (1940)
03/28 Ball State Cardinals dropped Jackson, Reggie (1969)

So if the top players playing the most teams in strat do it in the championship of the game, how can it be considered cheating in a regular game[/quote:851e1a5d7d]

If it's part of the game, then it's ok- nothing wrong with a little gamesmanship. I don't think it is particularly cheating, though if some feel that way, I could see that point too I've made changes at that point before as I'm not always comfortable with a team I put out, especially after a bad draft. I think Bernie should lock out the changes 1 hour before the first game of a season or have the cap hit apply at 1 hour before.

[Valen]

[quote:8bd9700d44]I wonder though why others have asked for this to be fixed/changed? And then I wonder why Bernie finds it valid enough to agree to this fix/change.
[/quote:8bd9700d44]
We all ask for things occasionally we do not really need. Human nature. And then sometimes we ask for things we should not have and even regreat once we get them. My feeling is this is just something that has little if any impact on outcomes so is a waste of time to fix. But that is my opinion and I respect the opinion of anyone who disagrees.

And I will say that if it could be done with a 5 minute change and not take away time from what I consider much more important issue no problem here changing the rules to state penalty cap kicks in at exactly 10 pm EST or whatever. In fact I believe such a change would be to my advantage based on how I like to make my final roster adjustments just before the cutoff. I can see though how it could come about that someone tries to make last minute changes and then due to internet slowness, connection dropping or, and even as unlikely as it is a slowness or hiccup of the gamesite, does not get the change submitted until 10:01. Just one time having that happen would probably upset me more than the advantage of a hard cutoff would make me happy. :D

[quote:8bd9700d44]Also and more importantly whether attempting to shine a light on what I consider poor sportsmanship (at the least)....OR bullpen v.3....OR fixing the playoff structure of games 5 and 6 (does anyone remember that?) I've come to realize it just doesn't illicit many responses from more than the same dozen people or so....Point is, good intent, whiny misguided attempt, whatever...I'm a little more invested than most so...since it seems most are fine with things being as they are....then I so be it.[/quote:8bd9700d44]

Some good examples here of positive impacts you have had. All the more reason to talk you in to putting your energy in to what I would consider more worthy pursuits. This one is a little like having superman organize your stamp collection while the nuclear plant melts down. :D