Good trades

[nevdully's]

Trading has become harder than ever and even more frustrating for me.

[Valen]

I usually make 4-6 trades in every league. I honestly believe the most important factor in completing deals is understanding what value the other person places on players and positions. Those differences in views are what makes each team unique. If there were no differences in opinions then everyone's draft card would be identical.

The most practical way to determine these differences is to make offers and counter offers. All the negativity and calling out on everything that has become pervasive discourages even an opening offer/discussion.

That is a major reason I started this thread. Perhaps by looking at trades where both parties were happy we can begin to understand how different people think regarding trades. And with that knowledge maybe it will be easier to get on the same page and complete more deals.

Perhaps if we spent less time trying to call each other out on trade offers and started discussing with each other when offers are made trading might become easier and more enjoyable.

[nevdully's]

I hear ya...And really want you to be right. But I wrote my previous post out of the frustration of talking things out, well trying anyway....It's hard for me to be told Giles in a righty park makes an excellent LF....and when I told a newbie Williard Brown at ss (4 E36) was gonna hurt I was told to pound salt...For better or worse I seem to see the game differently and rarely find common ground when I'm told how Cabrera or Brooks Robinson can be valuable at 3b in 200m...If everyone broke a trade down like you it would be fine...but believe me most of the stuff I hear just makes me shake my head.

[Valen]

I can identify with what you are saying. I doubt public callouts will help as those people likely do not care about anything beyond gaining an advantage. But hopefully calling attention to those who send and make good offers will serve as an example. You know sort of a this is the right way example approach instead of a this is wrong way shame on you approach. It is human nature to be defensive when criticized and also human nature to emulate when you see something being successful or praised.

It might also be noted Nev that the type thing you mention in your last point is very common in fantasy leagues. And if TSN advertises and attempts to tap that market as good business would suggest they should more of them will be here. The question is: Are we going to educate them and modify their behavior through positive reinforcement or negative reinforcement.

At least the positive route does not generate hurt feelings or resentment.

[Palanion]

I end up in a lot of leagues that don't have in-season trades, whether it's a keeper league or theme league with unique team parameters, etc.

In general, though, I don't see too many trades even when I'm in a regular league.

I'm in a CD-Rom based keeper league and there's one guy in it that sends offer after offer after offer. i know ther are actually managers in this league that have blocked his emails so as to avoid it altogether. Personally, I don't mind someone making a bunch of offers, what irks me is when there's no negotiation. And when I say negotiation, I mean providing counteroffers. Maybe I'm asking for more than you are willing to give, or vice versa, but in negotiations, you never start low. If you don't ask for the dough, you'll never get it.

For example,

Him: What do you want for Padilla and Ross?
Me: Since I'm a rebuilding franchise and you have no high draft picks left for next year, I'd want young players.
Him: Thoughts?
Me: How about Danny Valencia or David Freese, and an arm since I'll need innings in return?
Him: I can't deal Valencia or Freese, I platoon them.
Me: You have two other third basemen.
Him: I use Valencia at DH against lefties on the road. Freese I use with Johnson at third.
Me: OK. Who would you offer for Padilla and Ross?
Him: I could give up Rhymes, Sweeney, Tatum, or M. Ellis.
Me: None of those guys will help me long-term. I would not deal Padilla and Ross for all four of them.

Two weeks later...
Him: So, any thoughts on Ross?
Me: Still interested in Padilla?
Him: Not really. Do you want Ellis for Ross?
Me: How about prospect Kyle Blanks?
Him: I'll give you Blanks for Ross AND Padilla.
Me: I'd need more than just Blanks.
Him: Blanks is a great prospect.
Me: He's coming off an injury and has no MLB track record yet. I'll give you Ross for him straight up.
Him: If he had not already exhausted his rookie eligibility, you know Blanks would be a top 20 prospect.
Me: But he's not, and I'm weary about him coming off the injury.
Him: Blanks will replace Ludwick in the OF when they trade Ludwick.
Me: IF they trade Ludwick, and maybe not then depending on who they get in return for him. I admit he's a good-looking prospect, but he's not worth both Padilla and Ross.
Him: OK. Blanks and Ellis for Padilla and Ross.


:shock: :roll: :roll:

[unesid]

I don't know about the rest of you, but most of the trade offers I have received lately are abslolute crap....either it is four scrubs for two of my good players, or it is a decent player at a position I already have a star at. Some managers refuse to look at the other team's roster before offering a deal.

I'm all for trying to improve my own team with every deal, but sending an offer to another manager that makes absolutely no sense for that team is becoming all too common.

[Valen]

I have not had that many bad offers coming my way. Maybe I am just lucky. Or maybe I have been building such rotten teams lately people do not even consider what I have worth scraps. :lol:

[scubaking1]

I find these two threads on trades to be quite interesting. It is my job to try to make my team better. I should try to find trades that improve my roster and win more games. It is not really my job to make sure that the other guy is also making his team better. That being said - I do not try to trick anybody else. In fact I often look for teams to trade with where both can benefit - thinking that is the best use of my time - in finding trades that will be accepted, not declined.

If you do not like a trade - then hit decline and move on. Ripping into someone just because they are trying to improve their team is rude - tell them kindly why the trade will not help you, if you must. I would also not feel terribly guilty if someone accepts a trade they shouldn't - I have enough trouble trying to make my team competitive - much less trying to worry about the competitiveness of the other 11. They will learn over time - I have learned plenty in this game by making mistakes. It is just a game.

When I hear of someone ripping into someone else about a trade they didn't like I wonder if they would do the same if they met them or knew them face to face. Sometimes sitting behind a computer people say things they probably wouldn't do face to face. Let's just all be cordial. I think the number of trades would probably pick up if the negative thought that surrounds it for some would disappear.

This sums up my philosophy about trading 100%, but I have a couple of other thoughts:

1) I think all of us have preferences among players based on our experience. i.e. Speaker has been a total bust for me, and I would take Snider over him every time, because he has done well for me. McGraw at 3B and DH has been a complete Dud, yet Scales and Cabrera have been good for me. The other person may have the complete opposite opinion of the players involved.

2) In salary cap leagues, it is not uncommon to get too many guys at 1 position, and not enough at another. With the common practice of guys being drafted at their lowest salary, a manager may have to dump a guy at a high salary, to make room for an upgrade at another position. He may trade and extra player for a lower level player that he really needs.

3) Every trade has to factor in salary cap, roster composition, the division and league BPs, player preference, and other things I haven't thought of.

And lets also remember, there are many different styles of negotiating. Some people like to start off with an unbalanced offer, and then negotiate into the middle. Some like to offer what they think is a good trade from the start that they believe will be accepted. Just because a person's negotiating style might be diametrically opposed to yours does not make it wrong.

So I would just say lets keep it civil and fun. It takes 1 second to decline, but it could take an hour of typing angry emails back and forth. It is your choice.


T

[nevdully's]

[quote:2471ac0764]Some people like to start off with an unbalanced offer, and then negotiate into the middle.[/quote:2471ac0764]

But while this has become accepted here and in the real world it doesn't make it good practice *in my opinion*....Here I'll send you an offer that really tries to screw you and maybe if you're unknowing you'll accept....If you're not as stupid as I hoped maybe you'll counter with something equally as preposterous in your favor...But since I'm not so stupid we'll go back and forth (hopefully civilly) til we meet at where we shoulda started in the first place had we not been so ahhh human in our behavior. lol...It's a game....[b:2471ac0764]Why not start with something that you really think makes some sense for both?[/b:2471ac0764]

Actually T I agree with you on most and prolly shouldn't continue to beat this dead horse....But I already took the time to post it soo..

[Valen]

Depending on the person one reason for not doing that is many people you send offers to always respond wanting a little more no matter how good the offer is.

For example I have Reggie, and Waner and Ichiro on my roster. Offer Ichiro for Puckett and they counter with Puckett for Waner. Reasonable and maybe what one was willing to do in first place. Now Offer Waner for Kirby Puckett and many will counter Puckett for Reggie. That's not happening. But they are going to ask for that little extra so they think they beat you in negotiations or whatever. Offer equal value first off and you will either overpay or no deal gets done at all.

It is ingrained in us all these days. It happens in car shopping or even house shopping. I remember when I was looking for a house to buy and came across one I liked. I made an offer of exactly what the house was listed at and thought the search was over. Then my realtor called me and said they had countered for $10,000 more. I was confused but he explained that is just how it is. They assumed since I met their asking price easy and quick I must be willing to pay the higher price. I didn't and the house sat empty another 6 months. I then found a house I that was slightly over my budget. I sent an offer $20K below asking price and they countered at $10K under asking.

You can fight it, complain about it, call people out on message boards or the newspapers, or whatever. But with less time and energy you can counter and get something done that helps your team.