Seriously.
I really don't think I'm overreacting about his 3-homer game tonight amidst his monster postseason.
He's 31 years old, has hit 445 homers and 455 doubles in his 2000+ hits (good for a .328 BA).
Pick a record and he may wind up in the top 1-5 in it.
Look it up, he's been (and will continue to be) that good. :shock:
Albert Pujols could be the greatest player ever
Albert Pujols could be the greatest player ever
by nels52 » Sat Oct 22, 2011 11:33 pm
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by JohnnyBlazers » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:29 am
I'd say he's a great player no question, but greatest ever? Not quite. I think that distinction belongs to Mays who could do it all Id say he's in the discussion as one the greatest hitters who can hit for avg and power like Mays, Musial, Mantle, Robinson, Aaron, Brett, Williams. I think any discussion of the greatest players begins after 1947 with apologies to Ruth, Gehrig, etc. The level of talent was not as great as after integration. Cobb, Wagner were great players as well but the brand of ball played in dead ball and before that is not the same game played as today.
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Re: Albert Pujols could be the greatest player ever
by JohnnyBlazers » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:36 am
[quote:5b6f7baa48="nels52"]
He's 31 years old, has hit 445 homers and 455 doubles in his 2000+ hits (good for a .328 BA). [/quote:5b6f7baa48]
No way Pujols is 31 - more like 34-35. :wink:
He's 31 years old, has hit 445 homers and 455 doubles in his 2000+ hits (good for a .328 BA). [/quote:5b6f7baa48]
No way Pujols is 31 - more like 34-35. :wink:
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by Mr Regulator » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:58 am
Pujols hit 2 more home-runs tonight than Willie did in his career in post seaon play. :shock:
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by rburgh » Sun Oct 23, 2011 7:43 am
Pujols was born 1/16/1980. That makes him 31. He looks like a lock to become the 3rd member of the 4,000 hit club.
But I'd put the first member of that club at the top of my list of greatest players ever. Ruth is usually listed as such, but he's an anomaly - he was trying to hit HR's in an era where the pitchers dared you to.
There's an argument for Wagner - he was surely the best player ever after the age of 35, since he was 34 when he logged the monster card we have here, and played effectively for 8 more seasons.
But Cobb hit for average better than anyone, hit for power, and of course stole tons of bases. He was a prize jerk, but so have been Hornsby, Barry Bonds, and numerous lesser players.
As for the argument that you have to eliminate the players from the dead ball era from consideration for the GOAT title, hogwash. They didn't have the benefit of superb coaching from the time they were 7, or the opportunity to watch baseball on TV from the time they were 3. They all had to figure it out for themselves, usually in some small town a day's train ride from anywhere.
But I'd put the first member of that club at the top of my list of greatest players ever. Ruth is usually listed as such, but he's an anomaly - he was trying to hit HR's in an era where the pitchers dared you to.
There's an argument for Wagner - he was surely the best player ever after the age of 35, since he was 34 when he logged the monster card we have here, and played effectively for 8 more seasons.
But Cobb hit for average better than anyone, hit for power, and of course stole tons of bases. He was a prize jerk, but so have been Hornsby, Barry Bonds, and numerous lesser players.
As for the argument that you have to eliminate the players from the dead ball era from consideration for the GOAT title, hogwash. They didn't have the benefit of superb coaching from the time they were 7, or the opportunity to watch baseball on TV from the time they were 3. They all had to figure it out for themselves, usually in some small town a day's train ride from anywhere.
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by JohnnyBlazers » Sun Oct 23, 2011 8:18 am
[quote:e253b1a918="rburgh"]Pujols was born 1/16/1980. That makes him 31. He looks like a lock to become the 3rd member of the 4,000 hit club.
[/quote:e253b1a918]
That's from a Dominican birth certificate, which are notoriously falsified. Most players from that island lie about their ages because the scouts won't look at them after a certain age. He's a great hitter, no question, but when you talk about [b:e253b1a918]player[/b:e253b1a918], you have to consider other areas such as defense, speed - Mays and Mantle were the total package. Mays also played at Candlestick Park for a large portion of his career and lost 2 years to military service - he might have had 800 HR's if not for that and the park he played in.
Deadball players played a different game. Many players from that era had extremely high batting avgs but that doesn't make them "great". Yaz had a 301 avg in 1968 to win the batting title, does that make the deadball players greater? Different game & dynamics at work
[/quote:e253b1a918]
That's from a Dominican birth certificate, which are notoriously falsified. Most players from that island lie about their ages because the scouts won't look at them after a certain age. He's a great hitter, no question, but when you talk about [b:e253b1a918]player[/b:e253b1a918], you have to consider other areas such as defense, speed - Mays and Mantle were the total package. Mays also played at Candlestick Park for a large portion of his career and lost 2 years to military service - he might have had 800 HR's if not for that and the park he played in.
Deadball players played a different game. Many players from that era had extremely high batting avgs but that doesn't make them "great". Yaz had a 301 avg in 1968 to win the batting title, does that make the deadball players greater? Different game & dynamics at work
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by rburgh » Sun Oct 23, 2011 9:19 am
Pujols grew up in Missouri. The falsified Dominican birth certificates are usually created when the players have grown enough to be noticed by scouts. This doesn't apply to Albert, who was signed out of high school. Could he be a year or two older? Maybe. But I think it's extremely unlikely.
He's 150 hits ahead of Rose's total at the same baseball age. Rose was born in April, so the comparison is pretty close. Even if he's off by a year or two, he'll get to 4000 if he decides to try for it. With his power, someone will pay him to hit .265-25-85 and put fannies in the seats when he's 44.
He'll also hit 800 HR's unless something odd happens. 4000-800 will be quite a feat. It will put him into the argument.
Curious - you discount the great batting averages from the dead ball era, without giving the players offsetting credit for the extreme difficulty of hitting HR's, and of fielding acceptably with crappy fields, primitive or nonexistent equipment, etc.
I think there are at least a dozen players (excluding pitchers) that one can make an argument for being the GOAT.
In no particular order, my list of these dozen would be Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Mantle, Oscar Charleston, Josh Gibson, Wagner, Williams, Gehrig, Barry Bonds, Pop Lloyd, and Aaron. A-Rod, and Pujols will surely join the list when their careers are ended.
The argument will never, and can never, be settled. There are many others, including ranking presidents, quarterbacks, basketball players, and movie stars.
He's 150 hits ahead of Rose's total at the same baseball age. Rose was born in April, so the comparison is pretty close. Even if he's off by a year or two, he'll get to 4000 if he decides to try for it. With his power, someone will pay him to hit .265-25-85 and put fannies in the seats when he's 44.
He'll also hit 800 HR's unless something odd happens. 4000-800 will be quite a feat. It will put him into the argument.
Curious - you discount the great batting averages from the dead ball era, without giving the players offsetting credit for the extreme difficulty of hitting HR's, and of fielding acceptably with crappy fields, primitive or nonexistent equipment, etc.
I think there are at least a dozen players (excluding pitchers) that one can make an argument for being the GOAT.
In no particular order, my list of these dozen would be Ruth, Cobb, Mays, Mantle, Oscar Charleston, Josh Gibson, Wagner, Williams, Gehrig, Barry Bonds, Pop Lloyd, and Aaron. A-Rod, and Pujols will surely join the list when their careers are ended.
The argument will never, and can never, be settled. There are many others, including ranking presidents, quarterbacks, basketball players, and movie stars.
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by nels52 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 11:39 am
[quote:37310a4b31="johnnyblazers"] I think any discussion of the greatest players begins after 1947 with apologies to Ruth, Gehrig, etc. The level of talent was not as great as after integration. [/quote:37310a4b31]
I myself tried to stay away from this point as to not offend some purists but definately agree with it.
Although, if you're going to weigh the merit of achievements based on time period you must acknowledge this (to some degree): The game as it is today is much better. You're average baseball player is simply better. Over the last 20 years we've had hyper-integration where Latin-America has simply exploded and baseball has become a truly world-game.
So, in this talent-laden environment that Pujols has found himself in he has dominated. His statistics can even be compared (as unfair as it may be) with guys like Ruth, Foxx, Gehrig, Wagner, Cobb, Aaron, Mays and Williams who played in era's that most likely had slightly (or greatly) diluted player pools.
Call me a new-aged ignorant 19-year old who never saw the like of Aaron or Mays play but you gotta believe that the 2011 MLB has a little deeper talent pool than really ANY other time post-integration or not.
PS: for those who were just trying to credit Pujols bat remember that he does have 2 gold gloves already, a 70% SB rate in 84 steals and in his far and away worst season he lead the league in homers and has lead his team to the world series.
Plus he already has 1 world series ring and about as many playoff appearances as one can have by his age.
Oh and he'll be in St. Louis...... Sorry Bernie :wink:
I myself tried to stay away from this point as to not offend some purists but definately agree with it.
Although, if you're going to weigh the merit of achievements based on time period you must acknowledge this (to some degree): The game as it is today is much better. You're average baseball player is simply better. Over the last 20 years we've had hyper-integration where Latin-America has simply exploded and baseball has become a truly world-game.
So, in this talent-laden environment that Pujols has found himself in he has dominated. His statistics can even be compared (as unfair as it may be) with guys like Ruth, Foxx, Gehrig, Wagner, Cobb, Aaron, Mays and Williams who played in era's that most likely had slightly (or greatly) diluted player pools.
Call me a new-aged ignorant 19-year old who never saw the like of Aaron or Mays play but you gotta believe that the 2011 MLB has a little deeper talent pool than really ANY other time post-integration or not.
PS: for those who were just trying to credit Pujols bat remember that he does have 2 gold gloves already, a 70% SB rate in 84 steals and in his far and away worst season he lead the league in homers and has lead his team to the world series.
Plus he already has 1 world series ring and about as many playoff appearances as one can have by his age.
Oh and he'll be in St. Louis...... Sorry Bernie :wink:
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by andycummings65 » Sun Oct 23, 2011 12:38 pm
May be sacrilege to say so, but if Pujols was a strong-armed centerfielder, we would be saying Willie Who?
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