Please evaluate the following 2 trades...

[216 Stitches]

[quote:af992549a9="Valen"]Still insufficient context. Ballparks help but just as important is rest of roster. If I had no CFer with viable option at corner OF I might give up Ruth and Cash for Cedeno and Mac so I would not have CF as a weakness. It is one of the positions i place a priority on.

It would also make a difference on what other pieces I had on my roster. If I have several other good LH bats on roster then my willingness to pull that trigger goes up. If these were my only 2 LH bats then my willingness goes way down, possibly to the point of settling in CF which I hate to do.

You just cannot declare trades like this to be good or bad without the full context. You look at your ballpark, other ballparks in division and most importantly your own roster and what your lineups might look like after the trade with how they look before the trade.[/quote:af992549a9]

With all do respect, no way. I don't see any context, combination
of ballparks or depleted bench (which, in a LIVE league, could only
result because you made a series of draft mistakes) that would justify
parting with Ruth and Cash.

Not crazy about a 3e8 in CF, but if you had to choose between this trade and playing Ruth in CF, you play Ruth in CF. 10 times out of 10. Even
if someone else got to choose the ballpark for you or you played on
the road for 162 games.

Okay, circumstances matter somewhat. In some circumstances,
trade 1 is really, really bad, while others its only really bad.

[ShakeyBoomer]

Looking at WAR only is not a good measuring stick for good strat cards. WHIP is just as informative. There are a number of very low whip starters' seasons that would add to the set (especially for 5-man rotations)

Joe Horlen 64
Roger Nelson 72
Don Sutton 72
Pasqual Perez 88
Dick Hughes 67
Jason Schmidt 03
Bret Saberhagen 89
Denis Eckersly 85
Derek Lowe 02
Gary Peters 66
Odalis Perez 02
Russ Ford 1914
Dutch Leonard 1914

[Valen]

[quote:87c98856b8]Not crazy about a 3e8 in CF[/quote:87c98856b8]
No way I am playing a 3 in CF. In a limited 200x set maybe. But never in ATG. I am going to have a 1 and I am going to have a - throwing arm no matter what. I would agree if I finish draft and have not drafted a quality CFer I messed up big time. But that too is part of circumstances. You realize you messed up and left yourself without a hole. Do you try offering players nobody would want for a decent CFer or do you look for players you could afford to trade that someone would want? You look at LF and realize you have Ruth and Musial. You could live with Musial so you offer Ruth.

We criticize if a guy offers worthless players. We criticize if a guy offers and trades someone worth having. Maybe those who know everything and never make mistakes should start a league just for perfect people. Doubt you will find 12 perfect people to fill it but also bet you will not have trouble finding 12 people who "think" they are perfect. :lol:

[Mr Baseball World]

Context is always relevant. In this case, however, it is only relevant in establishing how bad of a deal it was. It was a mistake made by someone not realizing the added value of the most expensive/best guys. I am sure there are options available(maybe a platoon setup) that would be close enough to Cedeno to make keeping Ruth the better call.

[Salty]

[quote:4845510f4b="Valen"][quote:4845510f4b]Not crazy about a 3e8 in CF[/quote:4845510f4b]
No way I am playing a 3 in CF. In a limited 200x set maybe. But never in ATG. I am going to have a 1 and I am going to have a - throwing arm no matter what. I would agree if I finish draft and have not drafted a quality CFer I messed up big time. But that too is part of circumstances. You realize you messed up and left yourself without a hole. Do you try offering players nobody would want for a decent CFer or do you look for players you could afford to trade that someone would want? You look at LF and realize you have Ruth and Musial. You could live with Musial so you offer Ruth.

We criticize if a guy offers worthless players. We criticize if a guy offers and trades someone worth having. Maybe those who know everything and never make mistakes should start a league just for perfect people. Doubt you will find 12 perfect people to fill it but also bet you will not have trouble finding 12 people who "think" they are perfect. :lol:[/quote:4845510f4b]

V-

I think you are missing the point entirely. No one is saying you 'must' play Ruth in center, just that it was a better option than the trade- and no one is saying that its a mistake to offer good players nor that we don't all make drafting or trading mistakes- and of course most trades will not be perfectly even swaps. (further, if you have Musial in the trade instead of Ruth, you are making a MUCH fairer swap)

We have a general consensus that it was a bad trade- the real question is 'how' bad of a trade it was.

One of my points (although not exclusively) in posting this happens to be because I let the person who initiated the trade know that they I felt they had taken advantage of a lesser experienced manager and for this person it was a repeated behaviour of gaining advantage by swapping almost exclusively with the least experienced manager in every league.

I let that individual know that I was going to post the trades anonymously on the boards and let folks weigh in because the response that I got was that they didn't seem to understand my continuing objection to this practice, nor did they think the subsequent offer was a bad offer- and I thought they were actually kidding with me when they said it would improve my team.

[Valen]

So before a person makes a trade they should check with you for approval first?

You see my issue is any of us setting ourselves up as the trade police. I do not want anyone telling me how to run my team and am not going to waste time telling others how to run theirs. If this is a matter of collusion where 2 people got together ahead of time and agreed on draft strategies to make sure one team won and the other sacrificed for the cause that is clearly wrong. If just a matter of 2 people making a trade I would not have made then I am not the trade police and it is their business.

Now if you want to "help" the newbie manager and engage them in a discussion of why you think a trade was not in their best interest perhaps that would be constructive. If that new manager could not see your point and you wanted to post here for advice to him (WITH HIS PERMISSION) that would be constructive. There is potential for him to learn.

Trust me I am very sensitive to experienced managers trying to take advantage of those who are new. I know of several vets who took their shot at me when they thought I was new. And some continue to send me bad trades even while they rant on the boards how reprehensible it is.

I can only assume they believe their offers are fair and it is just a difference of opinion or difference in perception of context. Of course if context does not matter then these hypocrits are simply trying to take advantage of someone they think is less wise than them.

Curious how would you respond if I sent you a league message I thought you had got the better of a deal?

[Salty]

[quote:be98bec97f="Valen"]So before a person makes a trade they should check with you for approval first?[/quote:be98bec97f]

V-
Im honestly not sure if this is serious.

[Valen]

I am rarely 100% serious. :lol: Just making conversation and seeing if you realize how your approach might be perceived.

[Salty]

Well, to answer your question-
Ive made a trade or two or three where other managers have 'called me out' because they were definitely to my advantage-

However, acknowledging that, I still told the person straight up BEFORE the trade was made that I thought I was getting the better end of the deal.
Thats going to happen sometimes.
Like I said not all in the world is even- we are all trying to win.
I mean, who the hell doesnt get excited about trying to improve their team?

and please dont misunderstand me- Im not the ultimate arbiter, policeman or whatever of jack squat; but in real life if you see a person taking repeated advantage of a situation wouldn't you say something?
Its not as serious here as this is just a game, but shouldnt we try to be consistent?
(believe me I fail more often than not)

...and PS...I dont know if you remember a certain manager by the name of Zak who publicly claimed I was in 'cahoots' with my 'buddies' because I picked up Mathewson on waivers after someone released him who shouldnt have.

[216 Stitches]

[quote:9d4a40d73f="Valen"]
No way I am playing a 3 in CF. In a limited 200x set maybe. But never in ATG. I am going to have a 1 and I am going to have a - throwing arm no matter what. I would agree if I finish draft and have not drafted a quality CFer I messed up big time. But that too is part of circumstances.
...
We criticize if a guy offers worthless players. We criticize if a guy offers and trades someone worth having. [/quote:9d4a40d73f]

I don't think the anaylsis is personal. From me its not. I like your posts,
and I like to respect everyone's right to manage their own team -- you
paid for that credit just like me.

Also, I agree that circumstances matter.

But I do have a right to an opinion as well, and I admidt
my level of imperfectinos shoud clearly identify me as a human
not a machine :). But through the back and forth on these
threads, we can better articulate some points. By imagining
that circumstances can be so "grey" as to justify a bad
trade, well, you are accusing me of not being allowed to have
an opinion that you yourself insist you are allowed to have.

So to repeat: my (first) opinoin is its a really bad trade. And by
that, I mean the team that gave up Ruth would always be
worse off in W-L (really the threshold for the vauge term, good
or bad). A second opinion, which hasn't really been all that
well articulated, is that it might be so bad as to be a "dumping"
trade. I don't know if its that bad, but its worth feeling out other
managers on if it could raise to that level. In the preseason, you
have the right to make dumping trades, but late in the season,
when its between contenders and non-contenders, its actually
against the rules.

I used the Ruth in CF option because I thought it was an interesting
twist on circumstances. Also, the trade-no trade contrast was kind
of extreme, so the combo seemed more intestesting of a contrast...
I could have also suggested if you are willing to trade Ruth just to
get a 1 CF, a Ruth for Mantle, Ruth for Speaker or Ruth for Charlton
would all qualify as better than the proposed trade and at least one
of the owners of the other players would jump at the trade, if not
all three.

Please know, I do like reading these posts. But what you seem to be
saying is that you have the right to opinions like circumstances can
make many and all trades grey (with the tangible example at hand, its
kind of a whopper of an opinion). Also you have the right to never
consider a CF3e8. But at the same time, you think Salt, myself and
many other managers can't feel upset when bad trades reach the
level of "dumping trades" can't be labeled as such, and that they can't
feel the league is compromised when such trades are made. In LIVE
leagues dumping trades are the worst because the only mechanism
for competitive balance is the talent dispersion in the draft itself, and
if you dump after the draft yiou are, in the worst case, undoing the
whole point of having a draft.

I am not saying (not in this post, anyway) that this is a dumping
trade, but discussing whether it is or isn't, well, thats one of the
reasons why we have the threads.

But I do apprecaite that you responded, which prompted me to
add this rambling post to the thread.