ATG new cards batch #4 drops Thu., 12/15

[supertyphoon]

Best thing to come out of the Federal League was Wrigley Field.

I agree the top echelon of Negro League players were major-league caliber, and the majority in the NeL were at least replacement-player level. Of course the problem we face is how do you correlate sketchy statistical records and word-of-mouth reputation into a set of SOM cards which are based on actual data?

You could generate SOM cards from the FL seasons - but they wouldn't be a "true" representation of the player's performance relative to the AL and NL.

The NeL cards we have are a noble attempt to place a value assessment upon their career stats, but they are of course a mirage. We can pretend they are completely accurate, but unfortunately they're not. On the other hand, it at least gives us something close to reality, which is all we can hope for. In my opinion it makes the simulation a much better product by including Negro Leaguers, warts and all.

The same cannot be said for the Federal League, for the very reasons rburgh said.

[JOSEPHKENDALL]

There are various times when the talent is not what it should be. Do we keep them out due to that reason?

I don't see any players in ATG unless they were either NL or AL clubs. Some of the requested cards may be part of the Major Leagues though. We have talked about the Federal League. Here are some others that are considered Major League:

American Association
Players League
Union Association
National Association

Leagues that are not considered Major League:

1900 American League
Western League
Negro League
Cuban League
International Association

[doug_tucker10]

I find it hard to debate against accepting The Federal League as a legitimate league when we use players in ATG who have a small sampling of PA's and IP's and yet can play a significant role on a team. For example IMO 2 full very good seasons of a Benny Kauff from the FL I feel is more legitimate than a Gates Brown 104 PA's from 1968 in the AL.

[ADRIANGABRIEL]

[url=http://articles.latimes.com/2009/dec/21/sports/la-sp-strat-o-matic21-2009dec21]LA Times Strat-O-Matic Negro Leagues article[/url]

[quote:0210abbad1][Scott] Simkus compares the competition in the Negro Leagues to "a real strong triple-A league," but says the best players "would have been stars in the major leagues."[/quote:0210abbad1]

[supertyphoon]

DUFFY - 1894 NL
HAMILTON - 1894 / 1896 NL
CONNOR - 1889 NL
DELAHANTY - 1894 NL
THOMPSON - 1889 / 1894 NL
BROUTHERS - 1889 NL
ANSON - 1888 . 1894 NL
KELLY - 1889 NL
KELLEY - 1894 NL
MCPHEE - 1896 NL
WARD - 1889 NL
MACK - 1894 NL
KEEFE - 1889 NL
RUSIE - 1897 NL
GALVIN - 1888 NL
RADBOURNE - 1888 NL
WELCH - 1889 NL
CLARKSON - 1888 NL

All of the players listed above are in the Hall of Fame, and all played in the National League. There are none from the American Association, Players League, Union Association or National Association.

I think SOM online has been fairly consistent regarding which seasons are eligible for consideration, and in that regard the Federal League fails the test.

[doug_tucker10]

Nexrad because of the rules of the day the players you've listed pretty much played a different game of baseball then what we have now. The game went through some radical rule changes during the course of and after the careers of the players you've listed, most notably the change of the pitchers mound distance from home plate from 50 Ft to 60 FT 6 inches. People can question how legitimate was 19th century baseball compared to 20th century ball. Because the rules were changing often for several seasons i don't trust all the numbers from the 19th and early 20th century.

People could argue pro and con for anything baseball depending on a personal point of view. We could say lets not include 1968 because it was so heavily skewed in the pitchers favor. Lets not include any seasons from at least 1995 to 2005 because who knows how high a percentage of the players in the major leagues were playing juiced with steroids.Lets not include 1930 or 1987. Baseball could fail any test depending on what we set as a personal standard.

[216 Stitches]

[quote:4580431d9e="jamesgang77"]I find it hard to debate against accepting The Federal League as a legitimate league when we use players in ATG who have a small sampling of PA's and IP's and yet can play a significant role on a team. For example IMO 2 full very good seasons of a Benny Kauff from the FL I feel is more legitimate than a Gates Brown 104 PA's from 1968 in the AL.[/quote:4580431d9e]

One bad decision doesn't justify another. While Gates Brown was
a legit PH, the year chosen is way out of proportion to his place
in baseball history. If both decisions have to be consistent, it would
be more realistic to roll back the Gates Brown card then to include
the Benny Kauff card.

[ADRIANGABRIEL]

[quote:8b4a9e529a="Ralph Waldo Emerson"]A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.[/quote:8b4a9e529a]

[The Last Druid]

Brown's current joke of a card should be excluded from the deck as should Kauff and Ken Smith.

There was very little major league talent playing in the Federal League. Not so the Players League of 1890 and the contemporaneous American Association. Lot's of HOF'ers in these two leagues. One team alone had Duffy, Brouthers and Kelly on it. Another team had Griffith, McCarthy, Tip O' Neil and Dummy Hoy.

I wouldn't complain at all if we had players from the Players League or American Association. But I don't think any are carded by Strat, which is not a major loss IMHO. But I'd as soon have guys from the Pacific Coast League as the Federal League. Which is to say not at all.

[supertyphoon]

jamesgang77 - you miss the point. The only reason we have these pre-1900 players at all is because they are in the Hall of Fame. It makes sense a sim called "All-Time Greats" would include the greats from an earlier era, even if it wasn't the same brand of baseball played in the modern era. It's a very limited number with a special reason for being included.