Ironman catchers in live draft leagues -- BAD NEWS!

[Salty]

Zim-

For me personally, its only somewhat of a disappointment that it happened-
and its something thats correctable, but does have a serious impact on winning if you have Josh Gibson for every AB in a season.

Im having another issue because I 'think' the right response would just be 'sorry' and Ill fix it...

[danielz]

http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/stratomatic/team/team_other.html?user_id=354059

here is one
Mauer was the catcher and Chief was the backup.
So I guess this wasn't done everytime. This league finished about 4 weeks ago.

[The Last Druid]

On about five teams, nothing in the past six months though, when the '94 Griffey got injured I'd drop him for the higher priced Griffey. And then replace him with the '94 Griffey once the injury wore off. Drove oaktvmike nuts, the only guy I ever disliked here more than gkhd11a, so it had inherent fringe benefits. :lol: But I stopped doing it, in part because I have many more teams again (usually 40-50 going at once now) and because I'm lazy and it involves too much micromanaging; it's easier to just set replacements for players at the beginning of the season. That way all you have to tend to each night is the pitching. I also like to see complete season stats for a player at the end of the year. Another reason to do it with Griffey is the 94 players, except for Frank Thomas, are all 15 game injury risks which I think is just bullspit, since a lot of them played in all their team's games.

But if there was a live draft league that involved prize money, I would definitely use the strategy. One guy in a league I'm in now seems to drop the .390 Brett for the 9 M Brett and vice versa almost every series. I know this because I look at the transactions pages, to see if someone has dumped anyone useful... I have no problem with the Brett add-drops and no one else has said a word about it either. It's a strategy, it's been talked about at length on the boards and it's not against any rules. So if he wants to do it, so be it. Just too much work for me to bother.

I'd never drop Yount in a live league because his best card is so much better than the other two and bulletproof as well.

Don't know what got into HAL with Johnson and the catching. HAL does some weird stuff at times during live drafts that I just don't understand.

Also, not having three relievers after a live draft is inherently self-defeating as HAL won't let you make any waiver picks. Usually HAL seems to force you to draft a third reliever with your 25th pick if you only have two, but not always. It bothers me because I often draft Mossi and Newhauser late to use their reliever cards specifically , but HAL only recognizes them as starters. A continual source of frustration for me as I have often failed to correct them to their reliever cards and they just sit on my roster as starters, never getting used, until it dawns on me that I forget to switch to the card I wanted in the first place.

[216 Stitches]

I don't swap cards.

For me its because you can't do it after game 142 nor
in the playoffs. Why start to depend on a strategy that
disappears when you need it most?

Seen it work the other way too. Managers who swap
cards a lot fade after game 142. Its tough to watch
a promising team drop out of contention.

The injury swap rule is probably something TSN should
adjust at some point. If you own all the cards from a
single player because, well, they are the same guy, shouldn't
he also be injured because he is essentially the same guy?

[Ragnarokpc]

There is one more solution - don't make the injury exception for the last catcher.

Maybe it'd be a good idea to carry more than two (or one) if injuries can still occur.

[Valen]

[quote:6578765789]I am new to Strat here at TSN (although I have been playing Strat for more than 30 years) and I have never done a live draft. I understand the rule about 2 catchers and 3 pure relievers completely but I am foggy about the rule on being able to drop a player's card for another card of the same player. Is that a rule violation? Thanks... [/quote:6578765789]
It is not a violation of the official rules. But consider. You use the 39 Dimaggio and his .381 BA in CF in spite of the risk of injury. Oops, he goes down for 15 games. So you just release Dimmagio 39 and pick up the 41 version. If you have played at least one team you know this is possible so not sharing anything a newbie would not know how to do.

The newly picked up 1941 version of Dimaggio does not enter your team with 15 games of injury to serve. So you just put him in CF and go on. You can 15 games later do the same thing in reverse. The game engine will consider the 39 dimaggio to have served his 15 game injury and allow you to start him right away. No need to carry a backup CFer because for all intents and purposes you have an injury proof Dimaggio. Same thing could be done with Brett or any injury prone player who has a decent alternate card.

Or consider the case of Hornsby. I draft him. First series I face a team with a mostly lefty rotation. I start the 1929 Hornsby who is a 1L balance. Next series I face a team that has a mostly RH rotation. I just switch to the 24 version of Hornsby who is 5R. In effect I am almost platooning Hornsby with himself. I get to use the left half of one card combined with the right half of another. You could platoon the 62 Mays with the 54 Mays in a similar fashion. Pretty cool, huh?

Or consider Koufax. You face a Dunn team one series so you use the 65 Koufax who is a 1L. Next series you face a Cleveland 57 team so you switch to the 63 Koufax who is a 3R. Pretty cool, huh?

Now in a cap league you would never see this because each transaction would involve a cap hit. But in a live draft there is no cap and thus no cap hit. No penalty whatever. This is a major reason I will never play a live league.

Frankly, I cannot see the difference in having an injury proof Josh Gibson and an injury proof Dimaggio. I cannot see the ethical difference between carrying only one catcher and being able to platoon a player with himself or play the Koufax style games. But the software allows all of the above. Now perhaps some think there are unwritten rules against doing any of this. Perhaps some think some or all of the above are unethical. That is the problem with unwritten rules. Who gets to write them and who gets to say when they have been violated?

Personally I think in live drafts you should have to specify the card year you are drafting and then have to stay with that verision for the entire league. That is the only way the above tricks will not be possible.

I also think this whole rule about catchers not being able to be injured just because you do not have a backup should be scrapped. That would eliminate any advantage of playing this game. It would also make players who happen to have catcher on their cards more valueable instead of less valueable. I think it is nuts that you could have a bullet proof Gibson. But I also think it is nuts that just having Boudreau on your team as shortstop makes both your catchers more injury prone.

[Salty]

V-

The switching of cards was discussed at length and I think everyone came to the conclusion that there was no major issue with it.
I think one of the advantages in a live draft is specifically that you can use more than one card a person has for a variety of reasons,
such as

a struggling hitter/pitcher

a card that leans diff to each side- note lots of guys draft Dick Allen and use his lefty killer side but then want to use the other as well

See- bernie specifically made it so that a pitcher is tired even if you switch which card you are using.

An injury- which makes guys with 2 good cards more valuable-
but still- NO 2 cards = Gibsons 1 card


The carrying of 2 Cs is actually explicitly stated in the rules-
as I belive the 3 RP rule as well.

[Stormcrow2012]

[quote:dc860904cd]I'd never drop Yount in a live league because his best card is so much better than the other two and bulletproof as well.
[/quote:dc860904cd]


I guess Yount was a bad example. I should have asked about someone else like Griffey or McGuire (by the way why does that cheating punk get like 6 cards and a lot of really good players only have one or two cards? I would like to see a better Buddy Bell card, like maybe 1980. Bell was a very underrated 3B). Before I do a draft league I want to make sure of all the rules and etiquette. I am real clear about 2 catchers and 3 pure relievers, but there does not seem to be a clear answer about swapping an injured player's card for a different card of the same player. It seems like most people feel it is alright, but some may not. I would want to know the rules and etiquette before joining the leauge.

I have 1994 Kenny Lofton in an 80 million dollar league and he went down almost right away for 10 games. I knew this could happen and his card would be a lot more expensive if he had 600 PAs or more. But it does suck because Lofton had almost as many PAs as anyone during the 1994 season. I guess that is just a hazard you have to live with if you pick anyone from 1994 other than Frank Thomas.

Happy New Year's Strat Fans!

[bontomn]

Even though the strategy of replacing an injured player with an uninjured version of himself may be legal under the present rules of ATG, it is completely unethical and totally unrealistic. Could never happen in real life; should never happen in Strat. At best, it's fudging; at worst, it's cheating.

And you can never convince me that making ANY catcher, much less Gibson or Mauer, invincible is anything less than deliberate cheating.

I don't know what Bernie can do about the former (except work in a formula that if Ruth '21 is injured, all other versions of Ruth are automatically injured for the same number of games), but correcting the iron-man-catcher rules loophole should be simple: Just make the No. 2 catcher subject to the same injury risk as any other player.

[alvarndc]

[quote:108ce4d2bc="Valen"][quote:108ce4d2bc]I am new to Strat here at TSN (although I have been playing Strat for more than 30 years) and I have never done a live draft. I understand the rule about 2 catchers and 3 pure relievers completely but I am foggy about the rule on being able to drop a player's card for another card of the same player. Is that a rule violation? Thanks... [/quote:108ce4d2bc]
It is not a violation of the official rules. But consider. You use the 39 Dimaggio and his .381 BA in CF in spite of the risk of injury. Oops, he goes down for 15 games. So you just release Dimmagio 39 and pick up the 41 version. If you have played at least one team you know this is possible so not sharing anything a newbie would not know how to do.

The newly picked up 1941 version of Dimaggio does not enter your team with 15 games of injury to serve. So you just put him in CF and go on. You can 15 games later do the same thing in reverse. The game engine will consider the 39 dimaggio to have served his 15 game injury and allow you to start him right away. No need to carry a backup CFer because for all intents and purposes you have an injury proof Dimaggio. Same thing could be done with Brett or any injury prone player who has a decent alternate card.

Or consider the case of Hornsby. I draft him. First series I face a team with a mostly lefty rotation. I start the 1929 Hornsby who is a 1L balance. Next series I face a team that has a mostly RH rotation. I just switch to the 24 version of Hornsby who is 5R. In effect I am almost platooning Hornsby with himself. I get to use the left half of one card combined with the right half of another. You could platoon the 62 Mays with the 54 Mays in a similar fashion. Pretty cool, huh?

Or consider Koufax. You face a Dunn team one series so you use the 65 Koufax who is a 1L. Next series you face a Cleveland 57 team so you switch to the 63 Koufax who is a 3R. Pretty cool, huh?

Now in a cap league you would never see this because each transaction would involve a cap hit. But in a live draft there is no cap and thus no cap hit. No penalty whatever. This is a major reason I will never play a live league.

Frankly, I cannot see the difference in having an injury proof Josh Gibson and an injury proof Dimaggio. I cannot see the ethical difference between carrying only one catcher and being able to platoon a player with himself or play the Koufax style games. But the software allows all of the above. Now perhaps some think there are unwritten rules against doing any of this. Perhaps some think some or all of the above are unethical. That is the
problem with unwritten rules. Who gets to write them and who gets to say
when they have been violated?

Personally I think in live drafts you should have to specify the card year you are drafting and then have to stay with that verision for the entire league. That is the only way the above tricks will not be possible.

I also think this whole rule about catchers not being able to be injured just because you do not have a backup should be scrapped. That would eliminate any advantage of playing this game. It would also make players who happen
to have catcher on their cards more valueable instead of less valueable. I
think it is nuts that you could have a bullet proof Gibson. But I also think it
is nuts that just having Boudreau on your team as shortstop makes both
your catchers more injury prone.[/quote:108ce4d2bc][b:108ce4d2bc]

This is the single reason I don't play in live leagues and never will.

This dropping business is clearly unethical and wrong. common sense would dictate that it is merely gaming the system. Honestly, can anyone with a straight face say it makes sense that you can platoon Hornsby or Mays w himself?

and then the old, tired excuse of "everyone else is doing it" or "everyone agreed it is ok". sorry, not for me.[/b:108ce4d2bc]