Steroid players - anyone else share this sentiment?

[Muadib1950]

[quote:cbe7c9533c="PotKettleBlack"]I saw something on TLC about a man whose bicep literally exploded. Same kind of thing. Connective tissue failure.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sj3De6s3ZjQ

That's why roid guys tend to have durability issues after a 3-5 year peak.
You didn't notice because McGwire always had trouble staying in the game, was never anything but statuary with his feet, and you always felt he could make a run at 61 if he could just play 150+ games in a fair to favorable ballpark. At least I did. And really, you see he was healthy for a 3 year stretch, then his legs started to go away, and he couldn't drive the ball anymore. 3-5 year peak, then can't stay in the game or do the same things.

That's why I have trouble believing Clemens was on the juice from the get go, given his total innings pitched. What seems at least as plausible is that pitching in Boston got stale, or the coaching in Boston wore thin (I can see doing anything in Boston being grating, but then I'm a New Yorker at heart), so Boston gave up on him, New environment with the Jays led to a rebirth. Then he hits mid-late 30's and starts juicing because he can't do what he used to do.

The way folks assume roids with Bagwell really highlights the absurdity of the environment. Kind of like how people assume Albert Pujols is either older than his papers say or on HGH or something else baseball is failing to detect. When you put Bags in his context and accept that he was built like a hockey player, which he was, even in the minor leagues, you can accept that he hit 454 home runs without any helper beyond the ubiquitous greenies.[/quote:cbe7c9533c]

Good points on Bags and The Rocket ... and I wish the Roid Cheaters were not included in our ongoing All Time Greats cards.

Someone disparaged the new Arky Vaughan card further above -- how come? Is it not reflective of his greatest single season, as are the best cards each other Great has in our set?

[The Last Druid]

No the Vaughan card is not reflective. Too much home run power, evidently some kind of artifact of being a Fantasim import. The sentiment was to replace the card with the actual Strat card when Richman et al process Bernie's next batch of card requests.

Connective tissue damage rarely occurs when people are using roids. They do occur with great frequency during off cycles where you discontinue the roids. So Clemens, for example, could have been more durable by taking roids continuously during the season.

But my take on his usage is, just look at pictures of him. When his body started changing appreciably is probably when he started using 'roids.

[Mean Dean]

[quote:8afab672cc]Steve Michalik, who after his liver shut down from too much Winstrol V, Dianabol and Deca Duroblin, became a well-known spokesman against steroid use[/quote:8afab672cc]In 1990, Paul Solotaroff of the [i:8afab672cc]Village Voice[/i:8afab672cc] wrote a story called [url=http://www.nissansilvia.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=431324&view=findpost&p=5633890]"The Power and the Gory"[/url] about this guy. It is, without question, one of the greatest pieces of sportswriting I have ever read.

[PotKettleBlack]

[quote:0eabf322e1="Petrosian"]No the Vaughan card is not reflective. Too much home run power, evidently some kind of artifact of being a Fantasim import. The sentiment was to replace the card with the actual Strat card when Richman et al process Bernie's next batch of card requests.

Connective tissue damage rarely occurs when people are using roids. They do occur with great frequency during off cycles where you discontinue the roids. So Clemens, for example, could have been more durable by taking roids continuously during the season.

But my take on his usage is, just look at pictures of him. When his body started changing appreciably is probably when he started using 'roids.[/quote:0eabf322e1]

But your options, as I understand, are to cycle or to face a steeper curve of diminished returns, which is why pretty much everyone cycles and why ManRam got busted with a hormone found in the urine of pregnant women in his blood.

[The Last Druid]

Smart guy ManRam. HCG is very potent stuff. Legal too. Doesn't create the testicular shrinkage roids do. Great for wt. loss too.

[The Last Druid]

Okay, good article. Not always factual. Most glaring is the claim that Steve won the Mr. Universe title. Never did that, not even the amateur title. What he did was place first in his height class but didn't get the overall title. And he certainly wasn't the consensus pick to dethrone Arnold as Mr. Olympia. I think the author just assumed that what Michalik told him was true. The car accident was definitely true and a legendary event in his gym. Steroids did save his life then and they did call him "the Phantom." Never knew why until I read the article.


Michalik didn't seem to care if you looked at him when he worked out. I worked out in his gym from 1982-1986, although I believe he sold the gym in 1985. His training partner was this Greek guy named Gus. Steve was big into giant sets and freely dispensed unsolicited advice to me. Never had the slightest problem with him. He did have an amazingly small waist, but I didn't think his legs in the early 80's compared to his upper body. There were some seriously crazy guys in that gym but there was also Carla Dunlap and Albert Beckles who trained there when they were in the area. Michalik never compared to Beckles, Albert was in a whole different league. And Carla really was Ms. Olympia. Bev Francis trained there daily in 1984. and until she bought her own gym in Syosset (less than 10 miles from Mr. America's in Farmindale). At the time she was the world's strongest woman, although it wasn't clear at first to me that she was even female. Butt ugly until she got cut and successfully marketed herself a year or two later, then she started looking really good. Never saw her smile though, not even once.

[macnole]

Doesn't affect my choices. I pick players I dont like for a variety of reasons.

Interesting discussion. I'm certainly too paranoid to put something like steroids into my body.

I'm from Port Jeff--funny to hear some of those long island towns.

As for using players, there is no definitive list of users, only a definitive list of those suspected to be caught or who admitted to it. That's really it. It's a false crusade to believe we know who did, who didn't, and who does or does not today.

Performance enhancers, in various forms, have been around professional sports for a lot longer than the media's fixation on it.

[The Last Druid]

I lived in Port Jeff 1976-1977, my junior year at Stony Brook. Lovely little town.

[JohnnyBlazers]

ATG can be considered a "fantasy" game in that the stats can get so out of whack that you could reasonably conclude that in no way would it get replicated in real life. From that standpoint, I have no issue using the juiced "cards", or Joe Jackson, or Charlie Hustle.... unless some of you have your cards talking back to you and telling you that they are throwing the Finals in Baker Field 'cause you dont play their cards enough or you find used vials of Deca or Winstrol in your Team Front Office page...then you have some serious issues :shock: This is a game after all and with all its quirks and anomalies, I still enjoy it

There was a thread on this a while back and I believe someone said "....well if Bonds played in Yankee 61 with that short porch in right he would have hit 100 HRs...etc etc..." as if to justify the numbers that his card produces. In ATG, it doesn;t matter to me if he gets 200 HRs cause it is a fantasy game-a fantasy game built on probabilities. In real life, no, he would rarely get a pitch on the inside part of the plate and after his 73 HR season, he walked.....and walked...and walked...and walk....no chance to get 100 dingers IMO.

The whole steroid issue has been debated and to me the proof is in the numbers and how they fell off or how these players suffer catastrophic injuries. Ramirez, Ortiz, A-Rod all saw their power numbers drop after they got outed. Bagwell had that shoulder that wouldn't/couldn't heal itself. I definitely think Bagwell juiced - him being "built like a Hockey Player" in the minors doesn't mean anything - maybe he juiced then too? You knew A Rod was juicing - his legs were ripped and starting to look like a smaller version of McGwire after 2004//2005. If you played sports and know what to look for, you can spot users. Piazza has always been suspected and when tore the entire pelvic muscle off its bone (wince!) that was evidence - who has that kind of injury except juicers? It will be interesting to see what numbers Braun puts up next year

[The Last Druid]

I also don't see any reason to not use a player because of...whatever. It [b:70efe65159]is [/b:70efe65159]a fantasy game. Hey Cobb and Speaker bet on games. They weren't banned for life because they were "too big to fail."