BArry LArkin---Hall of Famer

[JohnnyBlazers]

HOF should be for the best of best - Trammell is borderline in my opinion-he was not the dynamic player that Larkin was. He had a few great seasons but a bunch of mediocre ones as well. I think Jack Morris was a great pitcher for four WS winning teams and that has to count for something, but his record is a bit spotty as well. He is no slam dunk for the Hall. Generally, if a player is deserving, he will get in as they get 15 tries. IMO, Bonds and Raines should get in next year and Raines was the best leadoff guy in the NL for a long time. I dont think too many of the steroid players should get in but Bonds and Clemens are exceptions. Bonds was THE best player in the NL before he went on his steroid spiked HR binge and Clemens was dominant before he "reinvented" himself when he went to Toronto. Clems will get in eventually. Sosa is pure steroids, Palmeiro put up numbers but so did a bunch of other guys in that era so he isn't distinguishing himself, McGwire is one dimensional, was more freak show than anything else..Dave Kingman on the juice...Just my 2 cents

[Valen]

[quote:2abdd24df4]And Raines! Where is the love for Raines, man? Best leadoff man of the era not named Rickey.[/quote:2abdd24df4]

I think Raines suffers from the old singles hitters drive chevys and HR hitters drive cadillacs syndrome. Perception is he was a singles hitting basestealer. Being the best leadoff hitter might get you respect from some diehard baseball fans but not the same level respect as being the best cleanup hitter. One gets you in easily while the other finds people asking what else you got to offer?

Fair? Probably not but much of life is like that.

[PotKettleBlack]

Juan Gonzalez failed to get 5% of the vote. He was a two time AL MVP.
Admittedly, 1996 was a robbery.

Players in the top 21 of voting with lower WAR ratings: zero.
Players with WAR+1 of Igor: Wetteland, Buhner, Steinbach, Bernie Williams, Paul Molitor.
Players with Juan Gone's WAR +5 or more: Knoblauch, Griffey Jr ARod.

The 1998 MVP was a robbery, but not quite the heist that 1996 was.
Yankees with higher WAR than Juan Gone: Jeter, Williams, O'Neil
Red Sox with higher WAR: Pedro, Mo Vaughn, Nomah
Mariners with higher WAR: ARod, Griffey Jr.
Blue Jays: Clemens and Delgado
Gonzalez teammates with higher WAR: Pudge.

How'd this happen?

[Valen]

Perhaps WAR is not the final word on what a player is worth that some think.

Specifically speaking to not getting 5% likely a combination of borderline numbers combined with taint of roids. I bet most of the voters attributed his big Texas numbers to PEDs and the ballpark, especially after he dropped off the map in Detroit.

[PotKettleBlack]

[quote:0916585341="Valen"]Perhaps WAR is not the final word on what a player is worth that some think.

Specifically speaking to not getting 5% likely a combination of borderline numbers combined with taint of roids. I bet most of the voters attributed his big Texas numbers to PEDs and the ballpark, especially after he dropped off the map in Detroit.[/quote:0916585341]

I always thought his dropoff in Detroit was part spacious outfield in Comerica, part colder, more humid air in Detroit and part karma for leaving Texas. Mostly karma.

Definitely the "taint of roids" as the only "real" link between him and roids in the Canseco book (which has proved true where confirmation has been available).

WAR was unheard of in 1996, so fine, he didn't rate well in that stat. But not sure what voters were thinking.
Juan Gone: .314/.368/.643 with meh defense in a corner OF spot in an offensive paradise

ARod: .358/.414/.631 with plus glove middle infield in a neutral to pitchers' park.

Griffey Jr: .303/.392/.626 with gold glove defense in CF, neutral to pitchers park.

Texas did win 90 games to Seattles 85, so fine.

Brady Anderson hit 50 HR (yes roids) (.296/.396/.637) playing CF better than Juan Gone played RF on an 88 win team in a neutral to pitchers park.

McGwire hit 52 HR in 130G with a .312/.467/.730 (led the league in both OB and SLG).

Obviously, they were sick of giving it to Frank Thomas. He won in 93 and 94.

[dukie98]

One of the dumbest decisions in recent baseball history: Detroit offered Juan Gonzalez an eight-year, $140 million contract extension early in 2000. Even dumber than that: he turned it down.

Gonzalez's defense was sufficiently unimpressive in 1996 that he DH'd 32 times, and was replaced on defense an additional 25 times ([url]http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/g/gonzaju03.shtml[/url]). He also missed 28 games outright, making his MVP award even less justifiable. He DH'd even more in 1998.

[voovits]

I don't understand how folks push for Trammell and Raines, but Dale Murphy gets no support.

[Valen]

[quote:b0b19d234d]I always thought his dropoff in Detroit was part spacious outfield in Comerica, part colder, more humid air in Detroit and part karma for leaving Texas. Mostly karma.[/quote:b0b19d234d]
Not sure you can hold leaving Texas against him. He was traded.

November 2, 1999: Traded by the Texas Rangers with Danny Patterson and Gregg Zaun to the Detroit Tigers for Alan Webb (minors), Frank Catalanotto, Francisco Cordero, Bill Haselman, Gabe Kapler and Justin Thompson.

Karma restored?

[PotKettleBlack]

[quote:013b135404="Valen"][quote:013b135404]I always thought his dropoff in Detroit was part spacious outfield in Comerica, part colder, more humid air in Detroit and part karma for leaving Texas. Mostly karma.[/quote:013b135404]
Not sure you can hold leaving Texas against him. He was traded.

November 2, 1999: Traded by the Texas Rangers with Danny Patterson and Gregg Zaun to the Detroit Tigers for Alan Webb (minors), Frank Catalanotto, Francisco Cordero, Bill Haselman, Gabe Kapler and Justin Thompson.

Karma restored?[/quote:013b135404]

Boy, my memory is crap. I thought he'd pushed for the trade, but it was really ownership realizing they'd topped out (not sure that was actually true) and wanted to rebuild.

http://rangers.scottlucas.com/archives/2005/10/reviewing_the_j.html

But really, karma was working against Juan Gone for something not entirely his fault... the Senior October thing.