[quote:ef1a5293f2="rburgh"]To me, Derek Jeter's principal asset as a "winner" has always been that the aggregate payroll of the other 24 guys around him is higher than the other team's 25-man payroll, usually by quite a lot.[/quote:ef1a5293f2]
BINGO !
Smallball Theory
28 posts
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by FUDU » Sun Mar 25, 2012 12:54 pm
[quote:dc5e97e67b="nels52"]Idk MM, win condition is just a term I like to use for guys that have an exceptional characteristic that can win you games, sometimes singlehandedly. Bonds is an obvious example. He can go 1 for 2 with a homerun and 3 runs scored easily. Although he's not the greatest bargain, Gehrig like any other MEGA star, can single handedly win you alot of games also. I think it's why certain 1 dimensional players can be outstanding I.E. '94 M. Williams.
I'm listing bomber guys which are by means the best and only guys, they just have the biggest game changing skill: homeruns :twisted:
In smallball, you obviously don't want too many (if any) HR guys. Still, when balanced correctly a good natural HR hitter, or more specifically a good RBI guy, can be money in the bank in small-ball. 10-20 homeruns is ALOT more than 1 from a big RBI guy. In smallball, runs are inherently more important than they are in team Balco builds.[/quote:dc5e97e67b]
At first I was reading your reply as talking about intangibles, to which I was like WTF, it's strat not real life.
But now I can say yeah you've kind of hit on my point.
Using my EG: Tom Hall. At my cap for his 6+mil I could most likely upgrade two spots on my staff/roster. However his card is really good and when his card is in play the results can be counted on much more so than the two lesser players I could get for him that might be "better values". I just have to not grossly misuse him.
Hey I'm not knocking value what so ever, I try to be a practical human being, but at the same time I know a good thing when I see it and sometimes quality outweighs value with no questions. Which is why I own a Tristar vacuum and a set of Paradigm speakers.
A preemptive Eff You to motherscratcher when he reads this and says "what?".
I'm listing bomber guys which are by means the best and only guys, they just have the biggest game changing skill: homeruns :twisted:
In smallball, you obviously don't want too many (if any) HR guys. Still, when balanced correctly a good natural HR hitter, or more specifically a good RBI guy, can be money in the bank in small-ball. 10-20 homeruns is ALOT more than 1 from a big RBI guy. In smallball, runs are inherently more important than they are in team Balco builds.[/quote:dc5e97e67b]
At first I was reading your reply as talking about intangibles, to which I was like WTF, it's strat not real life.
But now I can say yeah you've kind of hit on my point.
Using my EG: Tom Hall. At my cap for his 6+mil I could most likely upgrade two spots on my staff/roster. However his card is really good and when his card is in play the results can be counted on much more so than the two lesser players I could get for him that might be "better values". I just have to not grossly misuse him.
Hey I'm not knocking value what so ever, I try to be a practical human being, but at the same time I know a good thing when I see it and sometimes quality outweighs value with no questions. Which is why I own a Tristar vacuum and a set of Paradigm speakers.
A preemptive Eff You to motherscratcher when he reads this and says "what?".
- FUDU
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
by Valen » Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:22 pm
[quote:c006500ff4]How do you weigh the value of a pitcher who has higher BPHR on their card, so might perform well in the home ball park, against the prospect that they will give up some dingers away? Is it worth it because they spend more time at home? [/quote:c006500ff4]
As noted if everyone in your division is HR happy parks you need to be more careful. But the more people who are in HR parks the less likely they are to put say a Santana or a McLain high on their draft card. That makes them relatively less expensive to obtain. If you can get them a little lower on your draft card then that frees up slots higher on your card for better pitchers. If you are going for a # free ace you will need to draft that card a little higher.
But if there there is even one other pitcher or at least neutral park in your division at higher caps you can carry extra starters, do some matching up and limit exposure to your HR vulnerable pitchers on the road.
Should be noted I play mostly 200 mil these days with a few 140 mixed in. So my advice tends to be slanted in that direction as my experience is Skewed that way. Should also be noted that in higher caps I consider draft position cost almost as much as $cost, possibly more.
Now just to be totally clear the value of these cards is in low HR parks is part that those #s will turn in to outs and part that they could be easier to get than a comparable # free card. But if I had the opportunity to get an otherwise similar card that was # free I still take that card. So in advocating for a guy with a few #s in a low HR park I am looking at maybe getting an extra quarter or half mil relative value from the card allowing me to spend that money elsewhere and I am looking at the opportunity cost of maybe putting them lower on card allowing me to go after more desirable hitters higher on my draft card than I otherwise might.
There are some cards I go for because they are just great. There are some I go for because they are good and/or useable and can be had in the middle of a draft card.
As noted if everyone in your division is HR happy parks you need to be more careful. But the more people who are in HR parks the less likely they are to put say a Santana or a McLain high on their draft card. That makes them relatively less expensive to obtain. If you can get them a little lower on your draft card then that frees up slots higher on your card for better pitchers. If you are going for a # free ace you will need to draft that card a little higher.
But if there there is even one other pitcher or at least neutral park in your division at higher caps you can carry extra starters, do some matching up and limit exposure to your HR vulnerable pitchers on the road.
Should be noted I play mostly 200 mil these days with a few 140 mixed in. So my advice tends to be slanted in that direction as my experience is Skewed that way. Should also be noted that in higher caps I consider draft position cost almost as much as $cost, possibly more.
Now just to be totally clear the value of these cards is in low HR parks is part that those #s will turn in to outs and part that they could be easier to get than a comparable # free card. But if I had the opportunity to get an otherwise similar card that was # free I still take that card. So in advocating for a guy with a few #s in a low HR park I am looking at maybe getting an extra quarter or half mil relative value from the card allowing me to spend that money elsewhere and I am looking at the opportunity cost of maybe putting them lower on card allowing me to go after more desirable hitters higher on my draft card than I otherwise might.
There are some cards I go for because they are just great. There are some I go for because they are good and/or useable and can be had in the middle of a draft card.
- Valen
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by motherscratcher » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:03 pm
Valen, it is a good point that if everyone else in your division is in a mashed park you can get good small ball players relatively inexpensive as far as draft position is concerned.
But, how do you know? You don't know what other player's parks are until after the draft.
But, how do you know? You don't know what other player's parks are until after the draft.
- motherscratcher
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by dwightskino211 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:04 pm
I'd like to point out that it is possible to build a team that can win in both the small ball stadiums and home run derby parks too.
Like the old NY Islanders (Gillies, Bossy, Smith Potvin etc.) in hockey, if you wanted to play the fight game they could fight better than you could. Want to play the scoring game?, well good luck. The checking game ok they would be better at that too.
The point is, you need to win on the road as well in ATG 6, so it might be better to construct a team that has power, speed, on base ave., d, and arms at C and OF, plus a staff that has great starters and a pen too.
Whenever I looked at my good teams that did not quite make the P Offs or lost 1st round, usually the other team was better than mine in more than just one area.
So just keep picking those .370 hitters in the draft. The ones that don't do much more than hit for ave. That is going to hurt you more than help. That helps the other teams in your division keep you in 3rd place.
Like the old NY Islanders (Gillies, Bossy, Smith Potvin etc.) in hockey, if you wanted to play the fight game they could fight better than you could. Want to play the scoring game?, well good luck. The checking game ok they would be better at that too.
The point is, you need to win on the road as well in ATG 6, so it might be better to construct a team that has power, speed, on base ave., d, and arms at C and OF, plus a staff that has great starters and a pen too.
Whenever I looked at my good teams that did not quite make the P Offs or lost 1st round, usually the other team was better than mine in more than just one area.
So just keep picking those .370 hitters in the draft. The ones that don't do much more than hit for ave. That is going to hurt you more than help. That helps the other teams in your division keep you in 3rd place.
- dwightskino211
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
by FUDU » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:31 pm
[quote:f13815b68f="dwightskino21"]I'd like to point out that it is possible to build a team that can win in both the small ball stadiums and home run derby parks too.
Like the old NY Islanders (Gillies, Bossy, Smith Potvin etc.) in hockey, if you wanted to play the fight game they could fight better than you could. Want to play the scoring game?, well good luck. The checking game ok they would be better at that too.
The point is, you need to win on the road as well in ATG 6, so it might be better to construct a team that has power, speed, on base ave., d, and arms at C and OF, plus a staff that has great starters and a pen too.
Whenever I looked at my good teams that did not quite make the P Offs or lost 1st round, usually the other team was better than mine in more than just one area.
So just keep picking those .370 hitters in the draft. The ones that don't do much more than hit for ave. That is going to hurt you more than help. That helps the other teams in your division keep you in 3rd place.[/quote:f13815b68f]
I understand the point you're making, balance is necessary and does count. Especially when salary caps come into play. However the way the game in constructed there is a legit logic to building a team that is heavy in one area and a bit light in another. Part of reaching success in this game is knowing when, and how, to play to your strengths and just play the odds on your weaknesses.
I'm no expert, nor have tons of experience but you can simply look at good teams and their numbers to see you can win in multiple ways at this game.
Like the old NY Islanders (Gillies, Bossy, Smith Potvin etc.) in hockey, if you wanted to play the fight game they could fight better than you could. Want to play the scoring game?, well good luck. The checking game ok they would be better at that too.
The point is, you need to win on the road as well in ATG 6, so it might be better to construct a team that has power, speed, on base ave., d, and arms at C and OF, plus a staff that has great starters and a pen too.
Whenever I looked at my good teams that did not quite make the P Offs or lost 1st round, usually the other team was better than mine in more than just one area.
So just keep picking those .370 hitters in the draft. The ones that don't do much more than hit for ave. That is going to hurt you more than help. That helps the other teams in your division keep you in 3rd place.[/quote:f13815b68f]
I understand the point you're making, balance is necessary and does count. Especially when salary caps come into play. However the way the game in constructed there is a legit logic to building a team that is heavy in one area and a bit light in another. Part of reaching success in this game is knowing when, and how, to play to your strengths and just play the odds on your weaknesses.
I'm no expert, nor have tons of experience but you can simply look at good teams and their numbers to see you can win in multiple ways at this game.
- FUDU
- Posts: 55
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
by Valen » Sun Mar 25, 2012 6:05 pm
[quote:947cdcb121]But, how do you know? You don't know what other player's parks are until after the draft. [/quote:947cdcb121]
Part of the fun and the challenge. :D It is a little like hitting. You never really know what the pitcher will throw but you can anticipate, prepare for a certain pitch, and then hope to make adjustments if you are wrong.
And even if you do not draft a pitcher along the lines of those being discussed if your situation is such that they could be a value for you many times they are available via trade or waivers. I would say Santana is the pitcher most offered to me in trades. I suspect it is because people got him as a consolation in parks where he is not a fit.
Part of the fun and the challenge. :D It is a little like hitting. You never really know what the pitcher will throw but you can anticipate, prepare for a certain pitch, and then hope to make adjustments if you are wrong.
And even if you do not draft a pitcher along the lines of those being discussed if your situation is such that they could be a value for you many times they are available via trade or waivers. I would say Santana is the pitcher most offered to me in trades. I suspect it is because people got him as a consolation in parks where he is not a fit.
- Valen
- Posts: 54
- Joined: Tue Jul 03, 2012 2:34 pm
by PotKettleBlack » Sun Mar 25, 2012 8:17 pm
[quote:221f93e6b3="Munich_Man"]What is a "win condition"?[/quote:221f93e6b3]
Value. Which invalidates the argument that there are patently inefficient than bring wins. Their are undervalued traits. That's a Win Condition. Frisch, the cited example has good defense at multiple positions, good speed, pos clutch low GBA. Doesn't hit, but has all these traits that don't show up when you calculate BR or NERP. Undervalued traits. Aka Value.
Value. Which invalidates the argument that there are patently inefficient than bring wins. Their are undervalued traits. That's a Win Condition. Frisch, the cited example has good defense at multiple positions, good speed, pos clutch low GBA. Doesn't hit, but has all these traits that don't show up when you calculate BR or NERP. Undervalued traits. Aka Value.
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