BACK TO 1985 - Finals - London Knights win championship!

[Sykes25]

Run production? Guess you missed that Kevin beat George in RC, OPS, Total AVG, and SLG. Also those GIDP are good indicators of George's run production with 1 out and men on base. :wink:

[YountFan]

K-Mac had a higher Adjusted production than Bell 153 to 140.

K-Mac for ROY

[albert2b]

[quote:1d11fa4504]Kevin beat George in RC, OPS, Total AVG, and SLG.[/quote:1d11fa4504]

You're right.....and the Murph had absolutely NOTHING to do with that :roll:

[YountFan]

Check the Cummlative Stats thread for decade PDF files

YF


As for the Bell/McReynolds debate. Consider that Bell played in a division with Anihiem, Riverfront and the Kingdome. Whereas K-Mac divsion was Oakland, Yankee and Arlington. I'm still leaning the K-Mac way.

[albert2b]

[quote:dc9db3fbce]As for the Bell/McReynolds debate. Consider that Bell played in a division with Anihiem, Riverfront and the Kingdome. Whereas K-Mac divsion was Oakland, Yankee and Arlington. I'm still leaning the K-Mac way.[/quote:dc9db3fbce]

That's cool. Like I originally said, I thought it was extremely close. I just happen to think Bell had the better year considering the circumstances. It's completely subjective and I'm not shocked some people (Sykes, especially) would feel differently. But hey, that's what great baseball debates are made of.

Thanks for the files, YF!

[Sykes25]

[quote:354c5ef76c="albert2b"][quote:354c5ef76c]Kevin beat George in RC, OPS, Total AVG, and SLG.[/quote:354c5ef76c]

You're right.....and the Murph had absolutely NOTHING to do with that :roll:[/quote:354c5ef76c]

I guess the facts that pitchers give up more runs and players score more runs in Fenway have nothing to do with Bell's numbers either. :roll:

[albert2b]

[quote:4a4fbba283]I guess the facts that pitchers give up more runs and players score more runs in Fenway have nothing to do with Bell's numbers either[/quote:4a4fbba283]

Oh really??? Are those actual facts? If they are, I sure would like to see the statistical evidence to back up your statement. I realize you have played a hundred seasons, Sykes, but just because it has been your experience that Fenway teams score more runs does not make it a fact.

Like I said earlier, unless you recreate the exact enviornment for both parks (same players, opponents faced, etc.), it would be impossible to determine that with any accuracy. Even then, the dice rolls are a still going to be different for each season.

My statement was based on FACT. McReynolds played in a park with a greater chance of BP HR. He had a better opportunity to hit HOME RUNS than Bell did. There's no arguing that. Home Runs directly impact RC, OPS, TOTAL AVG and SLG....much more so than singles. So if the parks were reversed, it's highly likely McReynolds wouldn't have had the edge in any of those categories.

Man, this is getting tiring. Felt like I typed the same exact explanation this morning. Am I speaking swahili over here? I think it's pretty cut and dry what my logic is. Disagree with my choice if you like, but I don't think the reasoning for my choice is difficult to understand, is it? :?

[seanreflex]

Holy crap, I was gone for one day, and I come back to this !!! First, thank you Albert for recognizing Gorman Thomas as MVP. I will miss him dearly in the second half of this decade. Some incredible, fun stats he posted, no doubt.

As for the Bell / McReynolds debate, and also the Fenway debate, I offer this: Jimmy Key for ROY. 21 wins and a 2.73 ERA is impressive as heck in this game.

Bell had a phenomenal season; the amazing thing is the reveal. This was his 1986 card. I would have bet the farm I had 1987. The other fact is K-Mac had just as impressive a season. Tough to call, but I would give the nod to Bell. He played in all 162 games, which is impressive. His HR total was solid. His OBP is likely higher based on playing in Fenway.

I'm not a statistical genius like Sykes or Yount Fan. What I have found from playing numerous teams at Fenway is this: righthanded power hitters tend to have AMAZING power numbers. Thomas for 5 seasons, and Bell this season are classic examples. I've had similar years from Rice, Evans, Canseco and even (don't laugh) Ellis Valentine.

The key to Fenway hitting success is high OBP lefty batters (Boggs, Hernandez) and power to drive them in from righty batters.

Pitching at Fenway is always tough. I usually don't spend huge amounts of money on starters; I usually do very well with the middle priced righties - Gullickson, Witt, Hoyt, Sanderson, etc. Lefties get crushed at Fenway; don't know why. I look for guys with fairly low WHIP, and I rarely find four starters that are successful all at the same time (then again, who does).

I just do this to have fun; I love Fenway, and I love the challenges it presents. I hate playing at the Murph, because unlike Sykes, my 6 Murph teams have never had good pitching. Sykes seems to have figured out how to get good pitching there, and that is key.

so stop arguing, crown Key with ROY, and find T Rich so we can get 1986 rollin' !!

Thanks Albert,

Sean

[Sykes25]

[quote:551577513f]Man, this is getting tiring. Felt like I typed the same exact explanation this morning. Am I speaking swahili over here? I think it's pretty cut and dry what my logic is. Disagree with my choice if you like, but I don't think the reasoning for my choice is difficult to understand, is it?[/quote:551577513f]

Your logic is an opinion, and one I disagree with tremendously. Do not discount my rebuttal of your opinion based on FACTS that I have from completed seasons of teams I have played until you do some digging yourself.

My statement says right now that...

Teams that play in Fenway will score more runs on average that teams that play in Jack Murphy.

What does this mean? Players in Fenway will produce better hitting statistics than players in Jack Murphy. I could post links to 5 Fenway teams and 40+ Jack Muprhy Teams to prove this statistical data, but I dont think that will solve anything.

I believe your logic is flawed and ballparks should mean nothing for this award. You stated time and time again how you gave Bell the edge based on his park, yet McReynolds out produced him in more categories overall.

While I understand and appreciate your points, it does not mean I will roll over and say that your are right.

Bell faced different pitchers than McReynolds. Lets give him the award because he faced Clemens more than Kevin did. :roll: Players on other teams in the league or any league for that matter should not count as part of your analysis or discredit my proven statistics that show Fenway teams score more runs, period. Please look at any leagues you played in an show me data that shows Fenway teams score less than Murphy teams over 60% of the time and I will STFU.

Awards are determined my statistics and the impact those statistics have on the league. If you are gonna take into account the parks, do it right and stop looking at the Home Runs as the only factor. Why did Bell have more RBI? Maybe because more guys were on base. Why? BECAUSE HE PLAYED IN FENWAY. Why did Bell score more runs? BECAUSE HE PLAYED IN FENWAY. Why did K-Mac have more HR? BECAUSE HE PLAYED IN JACK MURPHY. Why did Bell win the ROY? BECAUSE K-MAC PLAYED IN JACK MURPHY. :roll: :roll: :roll:

P.S. make sure George Bell changes his Jersey Number next year to 643. :wink:

[YountFan]

[b:42a94c143e]Park Factor from Total Baseball[/b:42a94c143e]
[i:42a94c143e]Above 100 signifies a park favorable to batters, below 100 signifies a park favorable to pitchers.[/i:42a94c143e]

As you can see in this data from Total Baseball Fenway favors hitting by a big margin over Jack Murphy. This is why Sykes' agrument is correct. It is harder to produce in the Murph. The fact that Fenway is a hitters haven is well document in baseball history. [b:42a94c143e]McReynolds for ROY![/b:42a94c143e]

[code:1:42a94c143e]
Park Factor
SD BOS
1980 94 105
1981 93 106
1982 95 106
1983 97 107
1984 100 105
1985 99 104
1986 98 100
1987 96 103
1988 98 104
1989 100 106
[/code:1:42a94c143e]