Post poor in-game relief decisions here, Part II

[bernieh]

Hey everyone,

I hosted a thread a few months ago where I asked for examples of when you thought the computer manager did a poor job managing your bullpen. All the submissions were very helpful in pointing out to me where in the computer code to look, so I thank all of you for that.

I believe I've put enough traces in the code so that I can now determine exactly what the computer was thinking at a given moment. So I'd like to ask you all, again, to post examples of what you feel are poor in-game relief decisions. Before you post, please make sure you have a [i:e28a8c2681]reasonably-sized[/i:e28a8c2681] bullpen (at least 5 dedicated arms), and that your individual player settings make sense and are not too restrictive.

When posting, please include the following info:

- Game (ATG II, 2006, etc.)
- Team Name
- the link to the boxscore
- What happened
- Why you think it was a poor decision
(relevant settings; game situation; bullpen rest status)
- What you think would've been better

Important note: [b:e28a8c2681]please post your example the day it happens[/b:e28a8c2681]. The traces I've put in have exploded our logs to huge sizes so we're only able to keep 1 day of logs at a time. If I feel any given example needs to be responded, I'll edit the post with my response.

I still believe that the computer manager will do a good job with your bullpen if you carry a large, [i:e28a8c2681]realistic[/i:e28a8c2681] enough bullpen (at least 5 dedicated arms, preferably 6). That said, I do acknowledge that there's room for improvement, in certain areas more than others. Therefore I am committing the time and working with the Strat-O-Matic company to make this game the best it can be.

Thanks,
Bernie

[Semper Gumby]

[b:a7c88c8730]Game[/b:a7c88c8730]: 2006

[b:a7c88c8730]Team[/b:a7c88c8730]: Cleveland Jarheads

Box Score: http://members.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/2006/league/boxscore.html?group_id=624&g_id=423

[code:1:a7c88c8730]Silver Hawks IP H R ER BB SO HR PC ERA
T.Glavine 6 6 0 0 3 5 0 87 3.16
A.Fultz 2 2 0 0 1 1 0 27 1.31
R.Seanez LOSS(2-2) 0 1/3 1 1 1 0 0 1 7 3.78
Totals 8 1/3 9 1 1 4 6 1

Jarheads IP H R ER BB SO HR PC ERA
P.Martinez 7 2/3 3 0 0 0 10 0 91 1.45
B.Wagner WIN(2-2) 1 1/3 0 0 0 1 2 0 21 1.64
Totals 9 3 0 0 1 12 0[/code:1:a7c88c8730]


[b:a7c88c8730]Pedro Settings[/b:a7c88c8730]: Slow Hook / IBB Less
[b:a7c88c8730]Wagner Settings[/b:a7c88c8730]: Slow Hook / IBB Less / Avoid before 8th Inning

[b:a7c88c8730]Manager Settings[/b:a7c88c8730]: Conservative Relief / Regular Closer Rules



http://members.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/2006/league/boxscore.html?group_id=624&g_id=429


[code:1:a7c88c8730]Silver Hawks IP H R ER BB SO HR PC ERA
J.Lackey 5 1/3 5 1 1 2 3 0 95 5.02
A.Fultz WIN(9-3) 3 2/3 1 0 0 0 3 0 54 1.23
Totals 9 6 1 1 2 6 0

Jarheads IP H R ER BB SO HR PC ERA
D.Haren LOSS(4-7) 9 5 4 4 0 7 1 122 4.18
Totals 9 5 4 4 0 7 1[/code:1:a7c88c8730]

[b:a7c88c8730]Haren Settings[/b:a7c88c8730]: IBB Less



HAL had no reason to remove Pedro and every reason to remove Haren given my managerial settings and individuals player settings.

On several outings, HAL has removed starting pitchers with superior cards for RHPs with similar or worse cards when the game isn't in a "closer" situation or blowout. Despite pitching at home in PETCO, HAL seems to ignore my settings and provide is own rules.


Prefered outcome: Allow Pedro to pitch longer and keep my pen available for my scrubs.

[bernieh]

Semper,

Neither of these examples constitute "poor decisions" - the first one least of all. Under no circumstances would even the most cynical fan regard these as bad moves if they happened in real life.

Example 1: You had a 1-0 lead in the 8th inning with the tying run on 2nd and 2 outs. Wagner is your Setup man, so he came in. End of story.

Example 2: Haren never got tired, and you have your relief usage set to Conservative. That's also perfectly rational.

I do acknowledge that occasionally starting pitchers are pulled too early, and I even have a course of action in mind to take regarding that. But your first example absolutely does not qualify.

This does bring up an important clarification, though, which could be causing some confusion. Defining someone as your Setup man will bring him in in "setup situations" pretty much automatically. Setting your Relief usage to Conservative will indeed bring in relievers less often, but it will not interfere with your Setup man designation.

[geekor]

2006 - Need fo Speed - Last night

Overall I think HAL was used right, except he still has an inability to see Switch hitters, as in this example:

http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/2006/league/boxscore.html?group_id=406&g_id=558

In the top of the 9th, when Calero came in Rodriguez was a R (because Myers was there) and of course he swithces to a L when Calero comes in. I wish HAL would know that a SH turns around...

[Semper Gumby]

Bernie,

While you're right that HAL made the correct bullpen assignment since he deployed Wagner (serves as my set-up and closer), my complaint has been HAL pulls the starters early versus pulling some at all.

If you have very conservative settings, pitching in PETCO, and aren't losing my too many runs, you expect your starters to pitch deep. :wink:

In another posting on the same page (under Detriot Tiger's posting), I've listed roughly 8 or more outings (I could post more if you want - lot more) where the game engine disregards the initiated settings and employs something else. Specifically, HAL seems to pull Pedro and Prior early. Prior getting yanked - I can understand with his S6 rating but not Pedro.

Whether HAL assigns the correct RP in a given role, I generally have no issues with it as my bullpen isn't packed with cheap arms.

However, I [b:a24e78e634]sense there is something in the coding[/b:a24e78e634] that triggers HAL to make a change DESPITE very conservative settings on my pitchers and use of relief.

Otherwise, under your analysis, HAL should have pulled Pedro earlier (5th inning) when this happened:

[code:1:a24e78e634]*** TOP OF INNING 5 ***
0 K.Griffey Jr 3 Foul Out b-0
1 C.Shelton 3 Triple b-3
1 3 J.Larue 3 Strike Out b-0
2 3 L.Gonzalez 5 Fly Out b-0[/code:1:a24e78e634]

Besides HAL's employment to pitch Wagner against switch hitting Furcal seems misplaced. Employing LH Wagner merely forced Furcal to his better balanced side of the plate where he had more total bases chances than he does vs. RHPs.

Notwithstanding the pitching issues, I do recall in 2003 raising the alarm about hitters losing power around mid-season based on a coding parameter in the system. :D

[ROBERTMAVIN]

Only Halladay settings is a SLOW hook

I know 4 baserunners are suppsoed to make a P tired.. I would have thought SLOW hook would at least try one more batter...


Seconds IP H R ER BB SO HR PC ERA
C.Young WIN(5-11) 6 2 0 0 3 3 0 90 7.63
J.Duchschere SAVE(5th) 3 2 1 1 0 2 0 34 4.38
Totals 9 4 1 1 3 5 0

SweatSox IP H R ER BB SO HR PC ERA
R.Halladay LOSS(17-5) 2 2/3 4 2 2 1 3 0 51 2.94
D.Riske 1 1/3 1 0 0 0 2 0 17 3.44
S.Eyre 3 1/3 1 0 0 3 3 0 64 3.67
M.Rivera 1 2/3 0 0 0 0 1 0 20 3.12
Totals 9 6 2 2 4 9 0



** TOP OF INNING 3 ***
0 J.Varitek 2 Ground Out b-0
1 R.Belliard 3 Strike Out b-0
2 D.Dejesus 4 Single b-1
2 1 M.Ensberg 6 Walk 1-2 b-1
2 12 C.Delgado 3 HBP 2-3 1-2 b-1
SUBSTITUTE PR- Juan Uribe
C. Delgado Injured for 3 more games
2 123 M.Ramirez 2 Single 3-H 2-H 1-3 b-1
SUBSTITUTE P - David Riske
2 1 3 R.Sexson 3 Strike Out b-0


http://fantasygames.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/2006/league/boxscore.html?group_id=203&g_id=690

[bernieh]

bobm1007:

Starting pitchers do not get tired due to baserunners until their Point of Weakness (e.g. 7 in S7), so this is not a case of Halladay getting tired. This is simply a case of him getting pulled too early.

As I've said, I have a plan in mind to address this. Thanks for your example.

[ROBERTMAVIN]

thanks for info Bernie
and keep up the good work.. !!

[Semper Gumby]

Bernie,

Another [u:6bb85d2b92]fine example[/u:6bb85d2b92] of HAL pulling Pedro Martinez early -

http://members.sportingnews.com/baseball/stratomatic/2006/league/boxscore.html?group_id=624&g_id=471


Leading by two runs in the 7th inning, HAL yanks Pedro (pitching at PETCO - [b:6bb85d2b92]where he has 0.67 ERA / .61 WHIP in 67 innings pitched)[/b:6bb85d2b92] before he can face RH Jeff Conine and one runner aboard for Dave Riske who is not set as my set-up.

Result?

Pedro still gets the win but Riske allows two runs in 1.66 innings of work.

Of course, I have every setting switch enabled for slow to no relief.

My guess, [b:6bb85d2b92]and it is only a guess[/b:6bb85d2b92], is when TSN implemented the controls to limit relief pitching over-use - did someone - by chance - see whether that switch also enabled "[b:6bb85d2b92]try to control over-usage[/b:6bb85d2b92]"?

While Pedro is on pace to pitch around 8 innings per outing (as compared to his actual 7 innings per outing), I would expect around 8.5 given his homepark is PETCO.

Ironically, Peavy is averaging around 6 innings per outing (compared to his actual 6. plus in 2005). Prior is around or slightly ahead of his actual results too.

[qksilver69]

Semp - I think you really misunderstand the game settings. I have the CD-ROM too, and I would never expect the settings you mention to act the way you are describing. I agree that HAL makes some funky decisions with pulling starters early, but like Bernie said, none of the examples you have cited so far are unreasonable.

Riske is awesome vs. RH, in some ways better than Pedro, so it's no surprise to me that he was brought in to face Conine after Pedro has been hit a little. Pedro gives up more XBH to RH than Riske, so no doubt HAL wanted to keep the tying run out of scoring position there. In every scenario you have posted, there is a legit reasoning for HAL to do what he does.

In the Wagner example, you reached the 8th inning (where you have been telling HAL to use Wagner) and although Furcal gets turned around, in the following inning you may notice 2 lefties start off the inning, which sets up perfectly for Wagner. My understanding has always been that HAL is programmed to look at the fatigue of the current pitcher, the score, the SP/RP settings, and the matchups of the next few batters. You seem to think HAL should only look at your settings, and then you want him to know to prioritize Slow Hook for Pedro over everything else.

You have a beef with a completely different issue than the rest of us on this thread - your true beef is that the pitching settings don't let you use your pitchers EXACTLY the way you want to. The beef the rest of us have is that HAL is unreasonably pulling our SPs when there is simply no way in hell in real life that they would be pulled in that situation. You simply can't say the same about your posts.

It might be better if you address this (and think of it) separately as a game enhancement issue rather than a coding bug issue. I am pretty sure, based on the post above, that Bernie is seeing it that way. If we can get the true bugs fixed 1st, then we can start thinking abt ways to improve the pitching controls in the next release maybe....