Collusion: Please Comment
by Millercorps » Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:45 pm
I think lopsided trades are ok. Sometimes, someone gives up more than they receive and they're isn't necessarily anything wrong with that. I haven't been involved with any in ATG II but I do remember in ATG I I was making a push for the playoffs and offered a trade that clearly helped my team out, with the last place team in the league. I don't think it was so much that he got hosed but that the players I got were better suited for my park. I asked he said what the heck. I didn't make the playoffs but I got a lot closer with the trade. Obviously we're restricted by salary cap so "Lopsided" to one person might not be to another.
However, I do think that having the approach of trading in two different leagues is crossing the line. Like it was said earlier. If it's a keeper league thing and you're trading for future draft picks then that's a different story.
I think to really see lopsided trades you need to venture into $200 mil leagues. Then you can really see a difference.
However, I do think that having the approach of trading in two different leagues is crossing the line. Like it was said earlier. If it's a keeper league thing and you're trading for future draft picks then that's a different story.
I think to really see lopsided trades you need to venture into $200 mil leagues. Then you can really see a difference.
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by Hakmusic » Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:52 pm
As KO says, the key is the "help me in this league and I'll help you in that league" line. that is where I think it crosses the line.
If its you give me Cobb for two mid priced guys here and I give you Cobb for two mid priced guys there, then this is a problem.
I think that is quite different from the Hernandez for Jackie scenario or a ballpark effects trade, or even a trade that is lopsided salary wise but frees up cash. Weaver for a $5 million 3B is lopsided salary wise but would be a legit trade, as Weaver plus $3 million to spend on someone else could be a great deal.
If its you give me Cobb for two mid priced guys here and I give you Cobb for two mid priced guys there, then this is a problem.
I think that is quite different from the Hernandez for Jackie scenario or a ballpark effects trade, or even a trade that is lopsided salary wise but frees up cash. Weaver for a $5 million 3B is lopsided salary wise but would be a legit trade, as Weaver plus $3 million to spend on someone else could be a great deal.
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by Treyomo » Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:56 pm
This is one reason I don't like 200M leagues. It's too easy to do the wink wink trades - you scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.
That being said, there are typically 2 different types of help trades. There is the Yount for Spahn type deal (debated endlessly back in the good ol' days of ATGI) that match up cash-wise but are so obviously so slanted one way that they are either collusion or a veteran taking unfair advantage of a rookie. The other is the type Adrian mentioned, where "help" can actually be an even deal value wise but might push the offering manager to have to drop a player to fill a different position.
$200M leagues lead to the 3rd kind of help trade that I despise the most - quantity for quality - where one guy offers to send 4 $5M schlepps to another team for 2 $10M studs. The dollars are even, but I'm offended when offered and upset when they hit the transaction wire.
My advice, good King - don't expose him. Ask what he had in mind to determine which type of "help" he means, but indicate you aren't interested in exchanging favors by accepting a trade hugely lopsided in your favor. Give benefit of the doubt here, and if he's trying to do a lopsided trade to help, politely decline and ask him not to offer one again.
That being said, there are typically 2 different types of help trades. There is the Yount for Spahn type deal (debated endlessly back in the good ol' days of ATGI) that match up cash-wise but are so obviously so slanted one way that they are either collusion or a veteran taking unfair advantage of a rookie. The other is the type Adrian mentioned, where "help" can actually be an even deal value wise but might push the offering manager to have to drop a player to fill a different position.
$200M leagues lead to the 3rd kind of help trade that I despise the most - quantity for quality - where one guy offers to send 4 $5M schlepps to another team for 2 $10M studs. The dollars are even, but I'm offended when offered and upset when they hit the transaction wire.
My advice, good King - don't expose him. Ask what he had in mind to determine which type of "help" he means, but indicate you aren't interested in exchanging favors by accepting a trade hugely lopsided in your favor. Give benefit of the doubt here, and if he's trying to do a lopsided trade to help, politely decline and ask him not to offer one again.
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by BassballJG » Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:27 pm
I may be stepping into a hornet's nest here, and get myself smeared out of this community, but I'm really not getting what the problem is here.
I do reciprocal favors for people in my "real-life" jobs all the time. I own a recording studio, so sometimes I will give let's say a guitarist some free or discount recording time so he will play on someone else's record when that client can't afford to pay cash for session players. Everybody wins, and they all like me, so I get more business. Or the time I recorded a band free so they would endoese me to another band whose business I really wanted. Or the deal I just did to with another sample developer to offer discounts on our respective products to the other's customers. He gets a new market, I get a new market, fair is fair.
Quid pro quo is how deals get done, people establish relationships and is the grease on the wheels of the marketplace.
For the record, I have never done any deal anything like that described as it's never occured to me to do so. I'm asking the question "what's wrong with this?" quite literally, and in sincere ignorance of the principle violated. I have read this thread in actual incomprehension of the immediate and presumptive negative reaction. I hope that having such an "ethical blind spot" doesn't make me one of the bad guys, but I just had to say something.
I do reciprocal favors for people in my "real-life" jobs all the time. I own a recording studio, so sometimes I will give let's say a guitarist some free or discount recording time so he will play on someone else's record when that client can't afford to pay cash for session players. Everybody wins, and they all like me, so I get more business. Or the time I recorded a band free so they would endoese me to another band whose business I really wanted. Or the deal I just did to with another sample developer to offer discounts on our respective products to the other's customers. He gets a new market, I get a new market, fair is fair.
Quid pro quo is how deals get done, people establish relationships and is the grease on the wheels of the marketplace.
For the record, I have never done any deal anything like that described as it's never occured to me to do so. I'm asking the question "what's wrong with this?" quite literally, and in sincere ignorance of the principle violated. I have read this thread in actual incomprehension of the immediate and presumptive negative reaction. I hope that having such an "ethical blind spot" doesn't make me one of the bad guys, but I just had to say something.
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by nevdully's » Tue Jul 11, 2006 2:34 pm
BassballJG,
In your examples, 10 other guys that expect a relatively level playing field aren't getting screwed.
In your examples, 10 other guys that expect a relatively level playing field aren't getting screwed.
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