Collusion: Please Comment

[PJ Axelsson]

You could revise that to "the governments of the world", but that would likely take us to the bullpen.

I haven't read this thread, but every time I look, it's another 2 pages long. I guess I should go to the beginning and get caught up. I'm starting to wonder if the secrets of STRAT have been revealed here and I'm missing it... :shock:

[PJ Axelsson]

Festus was a legendary poster, in a bad way.

Does anyone remember that guy who was the US/Canada Border Guard who posted with more venom than a cobra and displayed the english skills of a 6 year old? Was that Festus too or a Festus wanna be or Rich Cranium?

[GREGKOESTER]

I better check in here and say it ain't me before PBTR slams me (just a joke. The PBTR thing that is. That hatchet is long buried.) Thank you King Olav or Bruce or whatever your next moniker will be, for taking the heat off the rest of us. I don't do a lot of trading but there are some guys I'll usually ask, ie Bobby. In a recent league I traded hitting for pitching with him that turned things around. The key players given up were Dean, and Selkirk, and maybe Staley, for Pfeister, Garber and Snodgrass. This trade was after one about 2 weeks earlier with another manager where I gave up Yaz and Snoddy and ended up with Reggie Jackson and Doby. Bobby even ended up trading with the other manager giving up Eddie Collins as one of the guys. The point here is we were all sucking. The other manager and I won our div and Bobby came in second. The trades actually happened weeks apart. The trades really looked bad with the players involved since the most desirable players seemed to be going for mediocrity. Yet they enabled all 3 teams to climb out of the cellar. To continue, in another league in which my team might be doing poorly and a trade is in order, I'll be sure to look for the same managers names in the HOPES of making a deal. With the thought that our successful dealings in the other league will help somewhat in this other league. Nothing is said or implied but I know having been on the recieving end that I am hedged more toward making the deal. Collusion? I don't think so. More human nature. I've also made deals down the stretch when I was doing poorly and another team was contending. I could clearly see the deal wasn't going to necessarily hurt me but it could turn out as an improvement for the other manager. By making the deal I have a CHANCE that when fortunes are reversed at a later date the other manager MIGHT do the same. Collusion or good business?
The difference here is that nothing was ever said or implied, thus not making a feeling of a debt OWED. BUT, if I choose to accept a deal offered OR offer a deal that is accepted, reciprocation, while not being mandatory is expected or at least highly probable. If it is not followed through at the later date you can be sure that the manager to whom it has occured with will not be party to another. Again I ask collusion? I think not.
The only problem I see with the subject of this thread is that the other manager didn't TRUST King Olav to reciprocate voluntarily thus wanting an assurance. He should have just tabled both offers and took his chances. He could have tabled the one that helped King then rescinded it as a teaser to see what happens. If King turned down one and accepted the other, he would know not to ever deal with King again. Collusion, well, yes. But face it guys, everybody has made trades that maybe another manager thinks will help him yet your team is struggling and the trade is probably going to do nothing for you. Then when situations are reversed you remember that and TRY to get a deal of the same type.

[olwill]

To Grindi's comments I say:
I think the only reason to make a trade is when you are trying to improve your team.I just don't think it is right to make a trade with someone based largely on who the other manager is if it doesn't help improve your team.To me it puts the managers that don't have as many relationships with other managers at a disadvantage.Without using any long winded and fancy talk.I just think it is this simple.If in your heart the trade doesn't help your team you shouldn't do it.Leagues like ATG should be played with integrity and if your not trying to improve your team with a trade the trade should not happen.Just my thoughts.-olwill

[ADRIANGABRIEL]

I'm hoping to establish the kind of relationship Billy Beane had with Allard Baird.

[danielz]

I think the big thing here is that this was a $200 league. In all the other leagues it is hard to make a lopsided deal because of limited funds. In the $200 leagues everyone has about $50 going unused and everyone has deep benches. Therefore its easy to trade Mantle and Cobb for Doby, Lemon, Clemente and Oliva.
So if you don't play $200 leagues, which most of us don't, then this is for the most part a non issue.
Granted, in a smaller cap league, Delancy could be traded for Carter, but I have never seen Delancy used except in a theme league where a manager was limited in his player choices. So I am not concerned.
Usually in a small cap league, the only way to trade for a big star is to trade one back in return, or skimp on another position.
So my suggestion is, if this worries you, don't play $200 leagues.

PS My real name is Dan :D

[The Last Druid]

I actually hold myself to a higher standard with trades. I won't even propose a deal that doesn't benefit both teams, at least in my estimation.

This evolved because I hate getting nuisance trade offers that are feel like attempted rapes.

[nevdully's]

I agree with Petrosian here. Although because of past experiences with certain players, or no experience, owners may not see the same benefit in my offer, as I would if it were my team.


[quote:01d3e8f3e1] everybody has made trades that maybe another manager thinks will help him yet your team is struggling and the trade is probably going to do nothing for you. Then when situations are reversed you remember that and TRY to get a deal of the same type.
[/quote:01d3e8f3e1]

Ahh no.

[Munich_Man]

I echo Nev's "Ahh no."

I agree with Petrosian, I'll only make/propose trades that I believe will help both teams. Of course, I hope they help my team more...

I don't trade often, but I will always explain any offer I make, telling the other owner WHY the trade will benefit him, and me, and I'll always respond to a trade offer with a reason why I rejected it, even if it's just a short line. It's just nice.

[GREGKOESTER]

I guess it is all in ones perspective. I don't knoww about high dollar leagues but this is how and why I stand by what I wrote.
Fact 1. Everybody thinks they have the perfect recipe for the winning team at the start.
Fact 2. They rarely do.

When one finds himself with a struggling team it is painfully obvious that the owner has miscalculated. What he has doesn't work. Is there such a thing as a BAD deal for him? ANY trade the money value must be right. What are the options? Go to the wire and take a hit? Bad. Stay status quo an lose 100? That sucks. Offer trades? Others rarely bite when you are struggling. So when someone offers a trade, being the owner of the sucking team, I would be open to ANY change that I don't take a money hit. What you guys are saying is...a guy 25 games behind at the trade deadline and sinking farther, shouldn't make a trade. That is ridiculous. By making NO move it ASSURES the other 3 guys in his division will kick his butt. The surest way of getting the same results is to keep doing the same thing. I strongly believe the guy in this position should take ANY deal. ANY change could turn him into a spoiler. But I can see how in the higher dollar leagues this is faulty but I don't do those leagues so my disertations are not applicable in those circumstances.
When I offer a trade I don't care if the trade HELPS the other guy at least not with vets. There is a reject button. Beginners or guys I know struggle with game I watch more closely. But Nev, Petrosian, Munich Man, If I get the better of you in horse trading I'm gonna be one happy camper.
One other point to consider. What one might consider a terrific deal for another player, that other player may think it is garbage. A case in point...I once offered Pete Alexander in a deal with a couple S only starters and whoever else and the main guys I wanted were I believe Bob Gibson and Johnny Evers. It was pre waivers. I had my butt ripped up oneside and down the other. Pete was supposedly garbage.