Rebranding of this post - 1893-1899 Cards

Walt Wilmot 1894 Cubs

Please include me as a Deadball ambassador.

Bill

Hey Dead Ball Ambassadors - You're front and center for the 17.1 add. please review the 17.1 add post.

Tks!
Rosie

In terms of pitchers, I would place in order :

1/ 1902 Jesse Tannehill
2/ 1910 Russ Ford
3/ 1916 Ferdie Schupp
4/ 1880 George Bradley
5/ 1917 Eddie Cicotte
6/ 1913 Babe Adams
7/ 1913 Jim Scott
8/ 1915 Ernie Shore
9/ 1876 Al Spalding
10/1910 Sam Frock

I would have placed Plank and King higher but I do have a problem with Federal League and American Association additions...but that's just me.

As for hitters, my list would be:

1/ 1894 Bill Joyce
2/ 1895 Ed Delahanty
3/ 1895 Jack Clements
4/ 1895 Bill Lange
5/ 1917 Edd Roush
6/ 1896 Jesse Burkett
7/ 1905 Cy Semour
8/ 1899 John McGraw
9/ 1912 Heinie Zimmerman
10/ 1896 Mike Tiernan

Jimmy Ryan 1889
George Van Haltren 1896
Fred Clarke 1897
Jim O'Rourke 1884
Jesse Burkett 1896
Denny Lyons 1888
Buck Ewing 1893
Cupid Childs 1890
John McGraw 1899
Bill Lange 1895
Jack Clements 1895
George Davis 1893
Bobby Wallace 1901
Elmer Flick 1900
Roy Thomas 1903
Jimmy Shekhard 1901
Johnny Evers 1912
Jack Glasscock 1890
George Burns 1914

Ice Box Chamberlain 1888
Kid Nichols 1898
Noodles Hahn 1904
Vic Willis 1908
Deacon Phillippe 1905
Bill Dineen 1904
Sam Leever 1907
Al Orth 1901
Bill Bernhard 1902
Jack Tannehil 1902
Earl Moore 1903
Russ Ford 1910
Jim Scott 1913
Bill James 1914
Fred Toney 1915
Bob Shawkey 1916
Lefty Tyler 1918
Jesse Barnes 1919
Wilbur Cooper 1916
Burleigh Grimes 1918

1909 Orval Overall: 20-11 1.42 .996

In a league that included HOFers Christy Mathewson and 3 Finger Brown, and Howie Camnitz's best season, Overall led the league with 9 shutouts, 205 strikeouts, strikeouts per 9 innings at 6.5 and lowest opponents batting average at .198. In addition, he was in the top 5 in many other pitching categories, including WAR, wins, ERA, WHIP, hits per 9 innings, saves, strikeout to walk ratio, HR ratio, etc.

http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagu ... ders.shtml

Overall was a right-handed curveball specialist who compiled a lifetime 108-71 record and 2.23 ERA, the eighth best ERA in major-league history.

http://sabr.org/bioproj/person/11f64629

Overall was the winning pitcher in the game when the Cubs clinched their last world championship (1909) prior to winning in 2016. He tossed a three-hit shutout over the Detroit Tigers in the fifth game to spark the celebration in the Windy City that would be prove to be the last for a very long time.

The 27-year old Overall struck out 10 Tigers as he won his second game of the series. The right-hander also became the first pitcher to fan four batters in one inning during the World Series.

After Chance gave the Cubs a 1-0 lead in the top of the first with a RBI single, Overall got out of a jam in the bottom of the frame.

He struck out Charley O’Leary, Ty Cobb, Claude Rossman, who reached first on a wild pitch to load the bases. Overall ended the threat as he struck out Germany Schaefer for his fourth of the inning.

Chicago scored the last run of the game in the fifth when Evers doubled home a run. Overall retired Boss Schmidt on a grounder for the final out of the series to earn his place in history. See the link below:

http://www.pressroompass.com/?p=5859

I am going to ask a philosophical question to all interested, please chime in.

In my original list for voting consideration, I had several names and years listed that would give extraordinary cards but would not necessarily be typical years for the players concerned. The question comes down to several points: 1/are we concerned with historical accuracy (not necessarily for true simulation, but with on the individual player level)?; 2/ do we try to be inclusive of all SOM players (those who frequent lower cap leagues, unlimited live draft leagues, franchise leagues?; 3/ do girls just want to have fun?

Let me give you a couple of for instances:

The 1894 card of Bill Joyce (left hand hitting third baseman) would be a tremendous card (.355/.496/.648 splits, 17 hrs in 355 abs, 21 sbs, 14 triples, 178 ops+), though with at least a pure one injury if not a two (played in 99 of the Senators (not those Senators) 132 games. This card would obviously be attractive to live draft guys. The 1895 card would still be good and closer to his career norms at least in terms of ops+. Splits of .311/.440/.526, 17 hrs but in 479 abs, 29 sbs, 149 ops+. We could imagine his card being of some use in slightly lower caps (his defense looks shoddy). Which one should go for? Joyce certainly has a place in our game, but what place?

The 1895 card of Jack Clements (left hand THROWING and hitting catcher) would also be a tremendous card (.394/.446/.612 splits, 171 ops+, 13 hrs in 322 abs) which might put him near the top of the catcher list. While Clements needs a card, should it be this one or should it be one closer to (but still better than) his career norms? The 1893 card would give us .285/.360/.489 splits, 123 ops+, 17hrs in 376 abs, and the ability to play 1B in addition to catcher.

The 1895 card of Bill Lange (right hand hitting centerfielder) would give us .389/.456/.575 splits, 157 ops+, 10 hrs in 478 abs, 67 sbs). But this is an outlier of his career (but outliers, I would argue, still belong to both baseball history and individual careers). Probably closer to his norms would be the 1896 card, giving us .326/.414/.465 splits, 128 ops+, 84 sbs in 469 abs and the ability to play catcher.

You get the idea. Give me some guidance here.

Thanks,

Bill

A good question. The good news is you are just nominating cards for the group, not appointing them, so it's not all on you. The more cards we get to vote on, the more informed the answer to your question is.

Personally I believe we are consumers, not curators. It's nice to look at a player's representative card. But we are paying money to play a game. Will it be played? If enough people want extreme cards to vote them in, then they should be available for play. And it would not be a fatal choice, because once a card is in, if enough people dislike those cards it's easy enough to set up a theme excluding those. But if the card is never presented for vote there is no choice at all and only one view can prevail.

Having said that I do think there is consensus to not include the true fluke years, and by that I mean the limited role years (like Rex Ryan's favorite SOM card, 1977 Roger Freed, or the card that singlehandedly destroyed my 1979 strat league, Oscar Gamble). If they played close to a full year then I certainly am ok with it. Where is " close"? We probably all struggle with that a little. You might get quite a few answers.

Again, yell and scream from the highest hilltop, "Give us an ATG MLB set and an ATG 'Unleashed' Set!"
Yes, it would be the best of both worlds that Bill has mentioned.

MLB Set would include modern era players (1900-present or 1894 to present)
I'd love a set where Hornsby, Collins, Lajoie and Morgan are the top 2b and there is a drop-off to Bret Boone, not a dominant Ross Barnes, etc
A set where there is a vast gap between Ted Williams and Luis Gonzalez

Unleashed Set would include
-Pre-1894 cards
-Small sample size cards like Ken Smith, Gates Brown, Roger Freed, etc
-Cuban or Japanese cards
-These cards Bill is mentioning that are somewhat an aberration
-NeL cards
and so on...........