Pitching fielding ratings affect salary, perceived value?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but we can't see the fielding ratings for pitchers on the individual CARDS until we have a non-DH league, right? Then, we see their CARD ratings (range and errors) in the fielding results on the MAIN team page under "pitcher's hitting statistics." (In DH leagues, we only see their error ratings and X rolls). So in a non-DH league of mine, I see Wilbur Cooper's actual fielding rating of 5e21. That's quite bad, and wondering if it contributes to him being perceived as a good value around that price point, because no one searching on Diamond Dope or in the card set itself can actually see the egregious fielding?

It's a slight variable in pitching value, but does make a difference collectively over the long run, probably affects salary a bit, and that's why we might think one guy is better than another at that price point -- without knowing the actual range and error ratings.

I don't quite follow the dh/no-dh. When you click on their card it shows fielding rating (5e21 for $2.71 '24 M. Cooper) I guess you're saying it's less visible though?

I see x Outs and x Total in Sim Fielding as well as errors for pitchers?

I just use Berce's Offense vs Defense for pitchers. They have the same #s as 1B but obviously less innings in the field. I just divide whatever the 1B equivalent would be by 1/6th. I figure they make 1/4th of the starts and than pitch about 2/3rd of the innings?

1B 5e21 = 5.8 NERP
SP 5e21 = 0.97 NERP ?

That's pretty bad and makes a big difference.

I would agree that pitcher fielding is one of those hidden factors most probably don't consider. That 5e21 is more or less adding 2 extra OB chances to Cooper's card.

I feel like every time I use a card like Fosnow with an e51 rating, every x-chance on him is an error. I just checked a recently completed league, and Fosnow/Sherry/Donald, all e51's were a combined 0 for 6 on X chances for the season.

Wild pitches are another hidden danger zone. Sherry has a double whammy of e51 and a 20 WP rating.

I can tell you with certainty the e rating on each pitchers card is converted to "equivalent hits" (i.e. an e1 is a single, e2 a double, etc.) as well as double plays, when pricing. Unlike defense for all other positions where you assume a constant value, the pitchers X-chance on their card can easily be converted into offensive outcomes.

At a high level, a 5e21 can be converted quickly as follows:

Range 5: 30% singles 70% outs
Error 21: 41% error 59% nothing

So multiply all of that together and you get the equivalent of:

Double (30% x 41%)= 12%
Single (30% x 59% or 41% x 70%)= 47%
Out (70% x 59%) = 41%

And the X chance is on an 11 or 3 if I recall, for 2 chances out of 108. Bad defense isn't the worst thing for pitchers due to its low probability but will add up over the season. Also for those who look at stats, it won't be highlighted since a lot of those outcomes will be errors and thus won't show as a hit from the pitcher and likely you will view the unearned runs differently because you don't realize they came directly from the pitcher card.

I just use Berce's Offense vs Defense for pitchers. They have the same #s as 1B but obviously less innings in the field. I just divide whatever the 1B equivalent would be by 1/6th. I figure they make 1/4th of the starts and than pitch about 2/3rd of the innings?

1B 5e21 = 5.8 NERP
SP 5e21 = 0.97 NERP ?

That's pretty bad and makes a big difference.

I think this is a mistake. Can anyone clarify?

Berce's "offense vs Defense" is all per 108 rolls (their own card). So pitchers have it on their card all the time when it's on the pitcher's "half". So 108 x 2 = 216 rolls to see its whole card play out (BR and NERP etc like Diamonddope).

For hitters its 216 x 9 because they're 1/9th of the batting order so other rolls are happening because of other hitters hitting. Pitchers have it on their card all the time, half the time (108 x 2).

So 1B/P have x rolls 0.93%, so pitchers only get 2 x rolls per their card (2 out of 216) whereas 1Bmen get 18 (18 out of 1,946). So 1/9th of the impact as 1B, not 1/6th like I said? It has nothing to do with usage, but is just per " their card" and its 108 outcomes just like Greg Maddux or Willie Mays.

What is Berce's?

Perhaps I am misunderstanding, but yes, you can see the defensive values, they're just written differently on the cards. For example, Greg Maddux $12.92M card reads as follows: e0 #2WR pitcher-2 starter(8). The "2" is his defense. The e0 is his errors. So he is a 2e0.

I don't think so, but need confirmation by more experienced players

the number before the N or W is "not" the fielding rating, but the hitting rating in my knowledge

I don't believe there is any rating showing on (365 at least) cards, other than the error # (and WP or balk, if that applies)

I could be wrong, but if you're talking about for example, Maddux 1995 he is a 2WR, and Walter Johnson 1913 is an 8NR (w = weak, N=power), both of which indicate their "hitting" not fielding rating

Fielding ratings: 2e0
Hitting rating: 8NR (great) --- 1WR (weak) 1 to 8 with 8 as best, N for bp HR # power, W for weak. R/L for handedness
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Berce Offense vs defense was a pdf about how to quantify defense in the same units (NERP) as we do with offense like on Diamonddope.

So Johnny Evers is a 9.62 NERP on offense and a -2.6 NERP fielding (1e20), which we'll add as it helps his team's pitching hence the minus.

J. Ever '06 - 1e20 ---> 9.62 oNERP + 2.6 fNERP = 12.22 NERP
D. Deshields '97 - 3e23 ---> 17.04 oNERP - 5.2 fNERP = 12.02 NERP

The x rolls are standardized on pitcher's cards. These rolls "check" the defense so Evers' and Deshields ratings at 2B will come into play on x-rolls to 2B. That's 2.78% of all rolls, of which they'll be 1,946 by the time that 2B's offensive card will get it's "108 rolls"

"Table 1: Probabilities of Each X-Roll
1B 2B 3B SS LF/RF CF P
0.93% 2.78% 1.39% 3.24% 0.93% 1.39% 0.93%


Multiply all of those by 1,946, and you get:
Table 2: Number of X-Rolls Per 108 Offensive PA
1B 2B 3B SS LF/RF CF P
18 54 27 63 18 27 18 "

54 rolls at a 1e20 @ 2B "saves" you 2.6 NERP (hence the add to Evers' value)
54 rolls at a 3e23 @ 2B "costs" you 5.2 NERP.

Google used to have the easy PDFs, but there's plenty of hosted PDFs or someone could share the PDF with you. Great way to compare 2e12 vs 1e30 etc and just go "Hitting + Defense = value"