HOF

I'm a "small Hall" guy. But Ichiro almost unanimous, and Beltran and Andruw Jones seemingly likely to get in made me really question why Kenny Lofton didn't even make it past the 1st ballot!

Since 1990's Hall vote by position...

SP 17
RP 7 *Eckersley as RP, not SP
1B 7 *Carew as 1B
3B 7 *Molitor as 3B, not 2B
RF 7 *Dawson as RF, not CF
C 5
SS 5 *Yount as SS, not CF
2B 4
LF 3
CF 2
DH 2 *Edgar as DH, not 3B

Interesting looking at WAR nowadays.

Do we really need so many relievers? Fingers, Sutter, Hoffman, Wagner all 28 or less WAR. Eckersley 62.1 (SP/RP), Mo 56.3, Gossage 41.1

All the more "controversial" hitter inductions seem to be in the 68 and lower WAR range.

Modern players who seem borderline with this standard (omitting Rose and PED's). I can argue against putting any of them in, but Cabrera will walk in.
1. Lou Whitaker (75.1)
2. Bobby Grich (71.1)
3. Carlos Beltran (70.1)
4. Kenny Lofton (68.4)
5. Graig Nettles (67.9)
6. Dwight Evans (67.2)
7. Miguel Cabrera (67.1)
8. Buddy Bell (66.4)
9. Willie Randolph (65.9)
10. Reggie Smith / Chase Utley / Joey Votto (64.5)

Any HOF that doesn't include Sabathia is dismally small. There are 278 players in the HOF. You're telling me Sabathia didn't have one of the 278 greatest careers ever? Get real.

CC belongs, but if he belongs, IMO, hard to see how Clemens and Bonds did not have one of the 278 greatest careers either.

All the players listed above are famous and therefore eligible for the hall of fame.

Well CC should probably in as a Cleveland player, because the last 7 Yankee seasons or so except for one were nothing much. Turned off BY the PED years so personally do not remember much of his early 2000's career.

How does Colon compare to CC? The Biggest difference is Bartolo bounced around from team to team. No bonus points for being a Yankee if that thought is true

Hiya guys,

Not that I matter, but I think an argument can be made for CC. But I am a small hall guy so I am not advocating for him. But a sliding scale argument can be made. He was brilliant in spurts mostly with the Indians, and by today's standards he had longevity. Beltran...Baines...meh. Very good and fairly consistent but never dominant at their positions in single season or over long term.

Bonds and Clemens and Rose...holy cow--three of the greatest--dominance and longevity. Heck if Cobb and Ruth's exploits were ok, then these guys were ok. But interesting no one is crying for ARod. I fully get that (and agree) but I admit I am being hypocritical because I can't stand him as a ballplayer. So to clutch my pearls on the others...well...

That's the problem, the standards slide and become relative measures. If guy A, well then gotta do guy B who is just slightly worse, then of course guy C slightly worse than B...and so it goes.

I think a reason for this is the current gen of writers have a limited window to vote "their" people in--and in the case of contemporaries it may feel like a duty to push "their guys" of the era.

I wonder how it may look differently if they adjusted the rules of the screening committee and eligible list. It is a tight squeeze through that committee. I dunno.

No era of baseball, except for the advent of the live ball in 1920s which was expected, created a bastardized results of the MLB record book….not the color barrier broken in late 40’s….not the expansion eras of early 60’s and late 60’s/early 70s’….not free agency….not players taking “greenies”…...not the spitball………comparing eras to eras there wasn’t a remarkable jump in any stats except for the 20’s when live ball appeared and everyone could start catching up to Ruth (though it took several years, and nobody really ever did in his time)

ONLY the steroid era permanently bastardized the record book….hitters who had no business even sniffing 25 HRs (Brady Anderson...he never hit even 25 in ALL his MLB seasons except his one steroid popping year...and) were suddenly mashing 50+ dingers in a season….

Why haven’t we seen a HR race like ‘98 before or since ? (Not even Maris and Mantle approached 70)….because of the anomalies of cheating

boxing and baseball both came dangerously close to forever losing the public trust, with “fixed” outcomes, and shady dealings…..that’s why cheating is so prohibited and taboo….not only in baseball, but in all sports….on the field, and in the playing of the game, it’s the worst a player (or team, ahem Astros) can do…..whatever they do off the field, abuses, gambling, crimes, mouthing off, etc. are all separate issues of character….they have nothing to do with the playing of the game, unless you’re talking about Rose betting on baseball

writers have too much power in the HOF say….some/most of them maybe never played the game, or were never any good…..that doesn’t disqualify them automatically, but certainly, a group of living former players and managers would do a better job selecting who to bring into Cooperstown and how to not

with that said, at least the modern writers have shown a decent amount of knowledge and respect for the game….they know that cheating is the greatest taboo, and while some inductees of the past 1-2 decades had some clouds around them, they didn’t have the sh—t storms that Clemens, Bonds, and some others did……

there is no reasonable argument that Bonds didn’t take PEDs….any glance at his career #s, and his pre-30 photos to his mid 30s and after pumpkin head shots, shows all one needs to know

there was no drug testing in the early days of PED era, but early on they were “against the rules of baseball”, and thus cheating, from later than 1990-ish, right after the Bash Brothers in Oakland….Bonds didn’t start his use until several years later, arguably, immediately after he lost some spotlight in ‘98 with McGwire and Sosa stealing Barry’s glory….and Barry’s pride was stronger than his respect for the game or his assumptions that “if others were cheating, then it was OK”

even elementary school kids know that “two wrongs don’t make a right”, and any and all PED users basically sold their soul to the devil, a la Dorian Gray, sacrificing their long term legacy for immediate on field and financial success….

Rose didn’t and likely will never get in…..and that’s deserved...he f-cked up, he knew it, everyone knows it….same with Bonds and Clemens…..Gehrig, Williams, Aaron, Mays, and many more will roll over in their grave if Bonds and Clemens ever join them

lastly, I look at it also from how one would explain the entire situation to a group of elementary school kids…...with all the focus and importance of “fair play” and “doing things the right way” and “cheaters never prosper”, it would be the epitome of hypocrisy to tell them that Bonds and Clemens were excused and that IT WAS OK to cheat

soap box hot and ready for next speaker, batter up

lastly, I look at it also from how one would explain the entire situation to a group of elementary school kids…...with all the focus and importance of “fair play” and “doing things the right way” and “cheaters never prosper”, it would be the epitome of hypocrisy to tell them that Bonds and Clemens were excused and that IT WAS OK to cheat

soap box hot and ready for next speaker, batter up

I don't think todays kids learn any of those things. They are enabled, coddled, and everyone gets a prize.

Big Fred and Steve, I don't disagree.

But my issue is there are other players who participated when it was the wild west but the difference was they didn't get caught go in front of congress (which was ridiculous anyway) and have a commissioner trying to make a statement. They skated by and kept their mouths shut.

Alot of ballplayers gambled on baseball and did things to break rules--whether it was PEDs, cork, pine tar, scuffing balls, sliming balls, stealing signs...where do you stop? Heck you could make an argument that scuffing or sliming baseballs continually is more of an advantage than a drug. You still have to hit or pitch the ball. Not to minimize it, just saying.

That's all I mean. My recommendation is you assess a "player" on their play. Not on their behavior or their charm with writers--I think we probably agree there. Bonds, Clemens, Rose--assess them prior to their roid use or the known gambling. But excommunicating players like that is not solving anything because the players and fans know it is selective hypocrisy.

Bonds had longevity and was a great near-5 tool player prior to the steroids. Clemens was dominant beforehand--at least as dominant as CC. And Rose the player--he was a modern day Cobb. Maybe not as dominant in his era each season, but the guy played almost every position and had a helluva lot of longevity.

Maybe it isn't equivalent. But let's start removing every pitcher who ever scuffed balls, slimed balls, got caught with a cork or extra pine tar, took experimental "vitamins", smoked in the dugout, everyone who frquently stole signs, give back all Astros championships and "Black Sox" the players, etc. Cheers

I'm a "small Hall" guy. But Ichiro almost unanimous, and Beltran and Andruw Jones seemingly likely to get in made me really question why Kenny Lofton didn't even make it past the 1st ballot!

I saw something on Facebook where Kenny lofton has better numbers pretty much everywhere compared to Ichiro and he got like 4%. Not saying he’s better player but like you said almost unanimous vs 4% lol let’s get Kenny in