THANK YOU KEITH OLBERMANN...

As a lifelong Yankees fan, I don't believe that he was the greatest Yankee ever, not by a long shot. But he was very very good for a long time, won 5 rings, and played SS for the most storied franchise in MLB history in the pressure cooker that is New York, I agree the hype has been over the top this year and sometimes it was downright creepy what with the number "2" on the cap, on the bases, etc etc. I think Olbermann is making the argument that there are some fans, particularly those under 40, who really don't have an appreciation for the history of the game and blindly deify Jeter. He does have a point but let's not mistake the marketing hype machine that is baseball and Jeter played in this era of non-stop ESPN & internet coverage. Having said that, the man has had several Roy Hobbs moments in his career: the flip vs OAk in the 2000 playoffs, the HR for the 3000th hit, the walk off HR vs Arizona in the 2001 WS, the diving catch vs. Boston that rearranged his face, the leadoff HR vs the Mets in the 2000 WS Subway Series, SS on a team that won 125 games (Regular Season & Playoffs) and swept the WS vs San Diego in 1998, the walk off hit in his last regular season game at Yankee Stadium the other night....the man has had a legendary career - there is more to baseball than numbers

Jayson Stark's blog puts a nice cap on his career and when you consider he did this as a shortstop it is even more impressive

http://espn.go.com/blog/jayson-stark/po ... er-numbers

Yankee fans will forever be grateful for him, Rivera, Pettite, Posada & Bernie Williams among others, homegrown Yankees who helped lead the Yankees out of the disaster of the early 90's (Stump Merrill anyone? Alvaro Espinosa, Mel Hall?? ) and helped fuel the last dynasty in MLB in the late 90's, early 2000's.

I can understand why people are tired, but let's keep it in perspective - amid all the marketing and hoopla, he did have a Hall of Fame, 1st ballot career.

As SteveF says, the defense is the real complicating issue when judging Jeter as a player. If one rates him as a good or even an average SS, then he has a legitimate claim to be one of the all-time greats. If one rates him as a below average or bad SS, then his rating slips, and depending on how one evaluates his defense, it perhaps slips rather considerably—but it doesn't slip enough to make him a bad player.

Even allowing for bad defense, Jeter still rates as one of the top SS of all time—but, if you think he was a good defensive player, and obviously some people do, given his 5 Gold Gloves—then he more or less merits the level of esteem that he gets from his supporters.

Let's use WAR, since lanier64 brought it up and, whatever it's flaws, WAR does give some sort of quasi-objective basis for discussion. Rated simply on offensive WAR, Jeter is ranked at 95.5, which is 20th best of all time--ahead of Jimmy Foxx! This is not saying Jeter is as good a hitter as Foxx, because it gives Derek offensive credit for playing SS. His hitting is being compared to a replacement level SS, while Foxx is being compared as a hitter to a replacement level 3B or 1B. Still if we see Jeter as a good defensive SS with the 20th best WAR of all time, then maybe he deserves a pretty high level of adulation. As a point of comparison, Cal Ripken has an offensive WAR of 77.2

BUT...Jeter's defense is seen by WAR as a significant negative, and so his total WAR goes down to 71.8. That's a pretty hefty penalty. Meanwhile, the WAR system sees Ripken's offense as a BIG positive, so his total WAR goes up to 95.5. In effect, if one factors in defense, Ripken and Jeter have changed places. One could argue that the WAR system is really rather brutal to Jeter overall.

BUT...even granted that, even taking away a whole lot for Jeter's defense, a lifetime WAR of 71.8 is still extremely good. Looking at the overall WARs for SS, here's what we get:

1. Wagner 131
2. A-Rod 116 (a complicated case)
3. Ripken 95.5
4. George Davis 84.7 (largely pre-1900)
5. Yount 77.0 (partly a CF)
6. Ozzie 76.4
7. Dahlen 75.2
7. Appling 74.65
8. Arky Vaughan 72.9
10. Derek Jeter 71.8

So, if we use WAR, and in the process give Jeter a huge hit for his defense, he still clocks in as the 10th best SS of all time. Moreover, some of the guys ahead of him have significant question marks. With A-Rod, it's the steriods and the fact that he played half of his career at 3B (in deference to Jeter). With Davis and Dahlen, it's the question of how much credit to give a career that is largely pre-1900. Here, we're clearly dealing with a different era. Dahlen has a +28.4 WAR on defense, which is the 10th best of all time. Without that stellar defensive WAR, he wouldn't even be in the discussion. But in 1895, Dahlen made 86 errors at SS and had a fielding percentage of .899. His defensive WAR was +1.8. OK, OK, let's cut Dahlen some slack. The next year he dropped his errors to 71, and he never climbed above 76 errors for any later season of his career. Moreover, Dahlen committed more than 50 errors only 9 times in his career. Again, perhaps I should lighten up on Dahlen, and maybe he deserves his lofty defensive ranking. But you get my point...pre-1900 baseball was a different game and assessing pre-1900 fielding is pretty dicey when comparing it to present day standards.

Yount is a more recent and simpler case. With him, it's whether we count only his play at SS since he spent half of his career in CF. Also it's worth noting that along with the question mark for Davis at #4, the WARs of the SS ranked 5-10 are only a few numbers apart. This is a pretty tightly packed group .

Getting back to my original point, judging Jeter purely based on his ability to hit, he ranks extremely high. And even if one gives him a significant penalty for defense, he still comes out as an outstanding player, if not quite the player that some folks think he is.

Nice post Outta Leftfield

Thanks Andy & Co.

I hope I haven't overstayed my welcome with my most recent long essay!

Don't let the Jeter fans get you down, Visick. I found one song that should cheer you up, and my son referred me to another. They're not quite Fogerty's "Centerfield" or Springsteen's "Glory Days," but I hope they lift your spirits...;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e1HEPAtdldo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4yqm87-AXG4

"I can understand why people are tired, but let's keep it in perspective - amid all the marketing and hoopla, he did have a Hall of Fame, 1st ballot career."

I agree with this as well. That being said, there are points you bring up that I kinda have problems with.

1. "The Flip" I've played A LOT of baseball in my life. I know the game. To this day, I don't know why Jeter was even close to that area of the field. He had no business being anywhere near that play. So, yes memorable play but... C'mon. IDK why he's there.

2. The Yanks won the WS 4 out of Jeter's first 5 years. Those were GREAT Yankee teams. When the teams weren't as good as those squads, they won 1 more WS in 15 years. If he's so damn good, where are the WS wins in the last 15 years? He can't carry a squad.


Maybe I'd like him a bit more if he didn't have the personality of a house plant. Or if he went to management and told them to move him down in the lineup. Or move him to DH or another position.

Are there any youtube videos / songs for Paul Molitor?

Nice writeup Leftfield, ties the whole argument together nicely

Are there any youtube videos / songs for Paul Molitor?

Lol. Nice, boring, white guys who play their entire career in the Midwest don't usually provide artistic inspiration...

Outta Leftfield wrote:

but, if you think he was a good defensive player, and obviously some people do, given his 5 Gold Gloves—then he more or less merits the level of esteem that he gets from his supporters.

But often Gold Gloves are popularity contests or someone gets a rep and no one wants to go against the grain. I mean was Jim Kaat really the best defensive pitcher in the American League for, what?, 16 years in a row or something like that. Not for all 16 he wasn't.

Ed

"I can understand why people are tired, but let's keep it in perspective - amid all the marketing and hoopla, he did have a Hall of Fame, 1st ballot career."

I agree with this as well. That being said, there are points you bring up that I kinda have problems with.

1. "The Flip" I've played A LOT of baseball in my life. I know the game. To this day, I don't know why Jeter was even close to that area of the field. He had no business being anywhere near that play. So, yes memorable play but... C'mon. IDK why he's there.

2. The Yanks won the WS 4 out of Jeter's first 5 years. Those were GREAT Yankee teams. When the teams weren't as good as those squads, they won 1 more WS in 15 years. If he's so damn good, where are the WS wins in the last 15 years? He can't carry a squad.


Maybe I'd like him a bit more if he didn't have the personality of a house plant. Or if he went to management and told them to move him down in the lineup. Or move him to DH or another position.

Baseball is a team game - of course those great Yankee teams were from top to bottom solid just like all great teams. It's not fair to say that the Yankees only one one WS in those 15 years (2009) after their run with Jeter as a mainstay. You can make an argument that Ruth needed Gehrig; DiMaggio wouldn't have won without Dickey and Gordon; Mantle needed Ford & Berra; The greatest of all time needed help to win rings. Contemporary dynasties, like the Big Red Machine had Bench, Morgan, Perez, Rose and the A's had Jackson, Bando, Catfish, Fingers....

Did Jeter have great range at SS? No. He was merely average but his offensive stats more than make up for his deficiencies at SS. The flip play was something of an aberration (even if Jeter maintains they practiced it). I think the Yankees should have moved him down in the order and personally, I find Jeter to be a very calculating kind of guy, very careful not to damage his brand and image thats why he never would ask for a move down in the order-kind of selfish. He did say that he was uncomfortable with all the attention he was getting which doesn't make sense since he could've called it a career at the end of this season instead of proclaiming it in spring training. But if there is money to be made...can't blame a guy for that. The Yankees have been that way for a few years now - very marketing oriented instead of results oriented. Yankees are big business - that's why when they resigned A-Rod they put clauses in his contract if he broke the all-time HR record in a Yankees uniform he would get more money; watch how they resign Ichiro it will have clauses if he gets his 3000 hit in pinstripes - all that brings in attention, more fans, more $$$ -