Strat and TSN

"Badjam"

I.strether you are a little late to this "party". Where were you during the switch over? You could have been telling SOM they could be doing more to address the community and in turn the community would step up and also do more. Instead they start by treating the community as know nothing imbeciles.

First of all, although I wasn't part of the original discussions in the ATG forum, I (as I said before) have been here from the beginning and am not "late" to the entire SOM "party" and all its forums' discussions on the matter. Secondly, even if I were "late to the party" (as you say), it wouldn't make my salient points any less correct or, inversely, an ATG veteran's inaccurate and erroneous points any moreso. Thirdly, your initial dismissal of my salient points--which you amend later in this post-- for being "late to the party" is a perfect example of what I accurately noted (in my initial post) is a significant problem of the current community: veteran or more experienced players dismissing (or lessening) the posts of new or unknown posters simply because those posters are new and/or unknown. If everybody keeps doing that, then good luck attracting and/or keeping new members to the forum and community.

Sure the community can do more to make this a friendlier forum and game but most are treading lightly after watching many of our friends get chewed up and spit out for actually voicing their opinion. Most stood their ground for a while thinking logic would prevail while others just left the game because of the lack of respect SOM showed their paying customers. On their way out, they and we all predicted this exact outcome. A dying community with mostly only the complacent ones sticking around. SOM weeded out all of the passionate community members, making for a bland and boring forum.

I appreciate and am encouraged by your agreement here, at least we both agree we can do something ourselves to improve the community while, and even before, SOM does something as well...which I agree it should. But the passionate community members have not all been weeded out. You and Salty have just passionately debated with me, and I and many others still passionately debate many SOM and MLB issue on the SOM and other forums. We just need to galvanize our current community members and do all we can to invite and truly welcome new members.

We could have used you during the transition to help tell SOM the importance of communication. You are correct in that all we have is for what's left of the community, to step up and make this a more friendly enjoyable environment but that would be much easier if the SOM approach wasn't anti compassion.

And we're in complete agreement here, and I will pay more attention to the ATG forum in the future so I can participate in further efforts to solicit SOM to better communicate with us members and help our own efforts to improve the community...as it should.

My only point of being late to the party was to show we could have used you during the most heated discussions during the TSN/SOM changeover. If you could have used your reasoning and forethought to help us get through to the powers at SOM, perhaps we would not be in this somewhat of a damage control situation.

My only point of being late to the party was to show we could have used you during the most heated discussions during the TSN/SOM changeover. If you could have used your reasoning and forethought to help us get through to the powers at SOM, perhaps we would not be in this somewhat of a damage control situation.

I appreciate the clarification, and it's noted. I also have to say that I'm (sincerely) flattered by your estimation of my forensic skills, since you truly believe I could have been the actual difference maker during the changeover discussions. However, since I have seen many other skilled debaters with excellent ideas in this forum and others, I truly doubt my absence was the deal breaker.

But, as I said before, I'm here now, as I've been in the general forum for awhile, and I look forward to both engaging SOM and working to improve our current forum with other members of the ATG and other forums.

No, your efforts would probably not have mattered but at least you would have seen the genuine efforts on our part and witnessed the censorship that happened that was not vulgar, just opinionated. Entire posts got deleted. Too long ago to remember the exact quotes and topics.

So if we go way back to the beginning maybe some who came later can better understand why many vets have left or participate far less than they might...it may also give the "whiners", "the malcontents that incessantly gripe" while "still irrationally paying for a product they deem deficient" or until "take their ball and go home" a bit of the credit they deserve.

Original ATG....Name.. All-Time Great [u]Teams[/u]

It was 34 teams with at least one team representing each franchise...So while the Yankees might have had three of their top teams in the original set, others like the Blue Jays, Mariners, Padres were still represented even though their set was a bit "less than" to say the least.

so 34 teams with a roster of about 24 each (816) and that was your entire player pool.


Ernie Banks

Not the latest version of his card 5L and not the second Banks addition 3R where he's eligible at 3b too...the first Banks card 3L bulletproof SS.

The community politely "asked" for an Ernie Banks card, ya know casual forum conversation...Just Ernie...let's play two...please give us Banks...but it fell on deaf ears.

a few months later the chatter for Banks kicked up again....but nothing.

a few months later more Banks Banks Banks dare I say complaining was heard...the community was getting restless.

We were told it simply "wasn't possible".

that this was All-Time Great Teams not players, and Banks wasn't on any great teams and it was not possible to add just Ernie.

Months later the chatter was much more aggressive asking for Banks, this was my first real recollection of community "whining"...

and here is where an unfortunate pattern first emerged.

After little or no response to our polite requests (over months and months) when things got a bit testy, then and only then, did SOM act..... Bernie came to us and said Banks is in!!! and a lousy Cubs team with a great Ernie Card was added.

Now we're in ATG7 waiting on ATG8 and the player pool is now seemingly infinite i.e. 5 Mark McGwire cards...ALL rooted in a community fed up with deaf ears to polite requests willing to "whine" to help this game grow.

Now since this thread is about each of us believing one another, take my word that almost All...and I can go to great length to show that this is not an exaggeration....that almost All improvements and fixes started with and came from this community...and sadly it was "the malcontents, that incessantly griped" that got these things done...because as I mentioned before the pattern that emerged from the Banks scenario was SOM does little, until pressured.

Lets talk about some changes you guys might appreciate and how they came about...

Prices...Although I never complained the game was too expensive, many did....hard and long...Hard and Long! Originally it was $25 a team.

Many complained that was too much!

Eventually SOM/Bernie offered 5 packs 5 for $100 saving $5 per team.

Still many complained...not me, not about this ever, but many still did...upon moving from TSN to SOM site management again lowered their price to just $20 per team and I think a 5 pack for $79.99.

Waivers.... Do you guys like the more relaxed choice of waivers opposed to a The Frenzy? Do you know how that came about? (here's hint, think whiny malcontents)

Speaking of The Frenzy do you know how that term came about? The beginnings of it? How the Frenzy lead many to play much more than they normally would, and have a blast doing it...It was, at that time, probably as tight-knit as the community would ever be....Yet the Frenzy eventually lead others (whiners) to complain for a more relaxed and fair way to distribute post draft players...that brought waivers.

Did you know that the Frenzy was gone for a short while until yours truly with several back and forth emails to Bernie got him to keep it (although never marketed properly and so most of that late night magic was gone)

Live draft...A live draft site....all started a run by a single community member, long before SOM did anything of their own.

How about watching the live game play? Again originally given to us by a community member through a grease monkey app (I think) long before SOM gave us anything.

Lefty/Righty specialist slots?
Set up?
Right/Lefty Closer?
Closer?

in other words bullpen V.2.

No one was more malcontent and whiny (too put it mildly) about rp usage than I was.

I thought it was the single most destructive flaw and the biggest difference maker between winning and losing than anything else in the game...this was probably me and some of the community at our most upset...because again, as it still is now we see that asking nicely and putting something on the wish list is a hopeless proposition.

Bernie finally agreed to work on what became bullpen V.2

and I poured over thousands of test boxscores over an almost year long period to help Bernie with it....

How about the wiki page for the rules we play under? Helpful?

Well for years they were'nt there..no rules clearly posted.....and worse than that, the rules as explained on site...well most of them were incorrect, since that was Strat 101 and not the computer rules we play under!!!! Crazy huh...It took years, and much pressure to get accurate rules posted, the most recent example was an incorrect rule being removed at my behest upon meeting with Hal R. and staff last summer...and still misinformation by management is being given...we all want a fair playing field yes? We'd all like to know the rules we're paying to play under yes? but unbelievably we had to "whine" to get the damn rules...

I could go on...and on...and some might find the history of how we got here interesting..bunches of stories....but also sad that so much had to come from malcontents....and a community that has cared much more about growing, fixing and improving the game than SOM did/does.

Nice trip down memory lane going way back before I joined (ATG4). The majority of the members, that go back as far as Nev, were the ones with the love and passion for the game that got disgruntled and left. They were simply battling for a better game for all because of their love of this game. Once they figured out that they had more passion than the people running SOM, to make this game better, did they learn their efforts are futile and reluctantly left this on-line game.

ATG8 is the perfect example of what Nev is saying has been the pattern of behavior since the beginning:- we didn't hear Jack Squat until 50 people signed a petition asking for more cards- NOT ATG8 mind you, more cards- the same cards we were told would be added every month 2 years prior.

Now SoM says ATG8 will be out sometime likely after the summer- yeah, it might be- but keep in mind that they are just now trying to figure out what should be in it, just read the blogs.

people think:
Is it coincidence that the announcement only came after people petitioned for more cards?
Was it really being worked on and just coincidentally it was going to need 5 or 6 months more work before its ready?

The answers should be pretty obvious.

PS- I also joined about the same time as Badjam did- think for me it was at the end of atg 4; Ive gotta say, every change to the game only came after people complained.

I have to say, Nev, you have a truly impressively catalogic memory of SOM's history, its various flaws or lacks through the years, and how others (like yourself) helped it amend and improve them. As Badjam said, you gave me a trip through my complete SOM memory lane...and thanks for answering that Ernie Banks question.

So if we go way back to the beginning maybe some who came later can better understand why many vets have left or participate far less than they might...it may also give the "whiners", "the malcontents that incessantly gripe" while "still irrationally paying for a product they deem deficient" or until "take their ball and go home" a bit of the credit they deserve.

As to this passage, I clearly touched a sore spot for you that I never even aimed at. I made very clear--in my first answer to you--exactly whom I was describing in my original post as "malcontents," and it definitely was not those making legitimate complaints against SOM for absent or latecoming ATG cards or any other problem Strat had. And it certainly was not those making rational suggestions or critiques that actually helped SOM improve the game. You seem to have forgotten I recognized those "legitimate complainants" who well articulated their valid complaints, and you failed to see that those "legitimate complainants" I mentioned could have--as they do--included you and your colleagues.

I could go on...and on...and some might find the history of how we got here interesting..bunches of stories....but also sad that so much had to come from malcontents....and a community that has cared much more about growing, fixing and improving the game than SOM did/does

.
Again, none of those excellent improvement came from "malcontents." As I said above, I pointed out who the "malcontents"--those who are chronically and peevishly complaining--were/are. Those improvements came from legitimate complainants with legitimate complaints and sound suggestions...and I plan to be among them in the future.

Now, to the main part of my original post; we've discussed its intro to no end. I did answer your original question, and you have yet to answer one of mine in return and suggested you would address the rest of my original post. I will post it again to make things easier for you. If you truly have no interest in it or its content, I have no interest in further pursuing the matter with you.

I would agree with you there - there was more of a community in TSN and Bernie did communicate with us on new developments. But the community has shrunk not only because of poor customer service, but because of SOM's low visibility - not enough new blood to keep this going. I would say the real hardcore community of players is a vanishing breed due to perceived poor customer service. I've been at this for about 10 years or so and though SOM has had it's problems with TSN and in the current home site, it;s also true that there are a lot of whiny crybabies who complain about EVERYTHING and decided to take their ball and go home

That being said, I do think there are things players--particularly forum participants--can do to improve and enlarge the SOM community.

1. Participate in and contribute to more forum threads. A lot of forum participants will only contribute to forum threads directly affecting them personally--such as individual league chats--or will only respond to forum threads or posts put up by their friends or posters they know. If many (if not most) of the posters keep doing this, new posters will have no opportunity to "join" the community, since nobody will participate in posts applicable to them or even respond to their posts.

2. Treat "newbies" and those you don't know--and their posts--with the same respect and/or consideration as you would one of your forum friends. Again, I've seen posters either treat people they didn't know with disrespect or discourtesy they wouldn't show their forum friends, or attack or team up against them simply because they were debating against those friends.

For example, the first time I read this forum, I saw a professed new player get in a disagreement with Micheal Grammes over Macintosh (of all things). Although neither Micheal nor the poster disrespected each other, some friends of Micheal's jumped all over the guy. One idiot, (whom I will not name) even threatened him and said "Fan Boys get slaughtered."...real "welcome to the community" stuff. That newbie never posted again and I assume stopped playing SOM.

So, in short, if members of the SOM community want to improve and enlarge that community, we need to get more communal and more welcoming.


P.s. I have never seen a statement that wasn't profane or abusive censored. Can somebody please give me an example of one that was?

Here it is, Nev...with the intro omitted. And since I did answer your question about examples of malcontents and whiners, you should at least give me an example of a censored non-abusive, non-profane post. As I said before, I've never seen one.

Well let's go back to ATG on the TSN site which was where the game was for most of it's history....and censorship and profanity...well it just wasn't possible to be profane for that period since the boards didn't even allow you to print the last name of Rusty Kuntz..Only when we moved to SOM could we type whatever shit we wanted....and abuse??? Well if I say so and so is doing a lousy job is that abuse or truth or truthful abuse.