2013 Hall of Fame ballot

Mark McGwire -steroids=Dave Kingman.

Like the points PJ makes. And enjoyed the article. Thanks for posting that link.

Mark McGwire -steroids=Dave Kingman.

I have always devalued the stats of known PED users. But I recognize there are problems with how I have approached that.

How do I know Kingman did not have access to some substance?
If such substances were not around in Kingman's day that means he hit his HRs against non-juiced pitchers. But McGwire hit his against juiced pitchers which means his HRs were more of an accomplishment. Said another way if I am going to reduce a hitters production because I think he was juicing do I not have to inflate all hitters of the era because they had to hit against juiced pitchers? And do I not have to adjust all pitcher's stats to reflect that they were facing juiced hitters? If you take that in to consideration the equation becomes.....

Mark McGwire (verses PED pitchers) -steroids > Dave Kingman (verses clean pitchers).

Bottom line I have finally arrived at is the numbers are the numbers. If what you put up was among the best of the era then you were among the best players of the era and I might as well step off my high horse, get over myself and treat them as such. The elite hitters and pitchers of the era should simply be recognized as the elite hitters and pitchers of the era. Refusing to put them in the HOF does not lessen them, it just makes the HOF miss a set of historically elite players.

I don't worry about the numbers. Players have more longevity and amass higher career stats. I saw Kingman play in person plenty of times and he wasn't ripped. We saw McGwire, Brady Anderson, Palmeiro, Sosa, Bonds, et. al blow up like the hulk. Bonds, Clemens were HOF material before juicing. Palmeiro and Sosa were not. McGwire was one dimensional like Kingman. my point is if McGwire is a Hall of Famer than Kingman is too.

No, Adam Dunn is Dave Kingman. Kingman routinely batted in the .220s and .230s, but McGwire, while no Tony Gwynn himself, has a career average in the .260s.
Way to simplistic to say McGwire was no better than Kingman............By that "one dimensional" argument, Harmon Killebrew and Ralph Kiner shouldn't be in the HOF either

No, Adam Dunn is Dave Kingman. Kingman routinely batted in the .220s and .230s, but McGwire, while no Tony Gwynn himself, has a career average in the .260s.
Way to simplistic to say McGwire was no better than Kingman............By that "one dimensional" argument, Harmon Killebrew and Ralph Kiner shouldn't be in the HOF either

McGwire had Kingman type batting averages until the mid 1990's. "One dimensional" is not an argument it is an observation. Kingman was aloof and hated the media so he got no support. His production never declined.

To be honest Kingman is a non-HOF sore sport with me. last 3 seasons in pitcher friendly park he hit 35, 30, and 35 HRs so no sign of slowing down. But then nobody would offer him a contract. Hard for me to believe there was not at least one team that could use a DH who guaranteed 30+ HRs. I am not in the know and he might have just asked too much money. But a shame to still be putting up numbers like you have entire career and suddenly not be able to get a job on the verge of a milestone 500 HR mark.

Mark McGwire -steroids=Dave Kingman.

I think there is a block of voters who agree exactly with this analysis. And given 20% more
many voted for Bonds first ballet than McGwire on his first ballot, the size of the voting pool
might be 20%. Or more.

Anyway, this sounds very much like a mainstream opinion in the fractured HOF voting pool.

Even worse, what happens when the backlog of these stars gets so big that some get through? Do the writers get all smug and say that they proved their point and now they'll let them in?

Let the players vote, get the writers out of the equation.

To be honest Kingman is a non-HOF sore sport with me. last 3 seasons in pitcher friendly park he hit 35, 30, and 35 HRs so no sign of slowing down. But then nobody would offer him a contract. Hard for me to believe there was not at least one team that could use a DH who guaranteed 30+ HRs. I am not in the know and he might have just asked too much money. But a shame to still be putting up numbers like you have entire career and suddenly not be able to get a job on the verge of a milestone 500 HR mark.

I'm glad we have some common ground, Kingman was an incredible HR hitter who never got the respect he deserved. The guy hit 100 hrs and averaged over 100 rbis in his lat 3 years. Today he would get a multi-year contract.