Strat-O-Matic Baseball 365

I got my hands on a 1977 National League Green Book today (had one when I was a kid). The National League Green Book and American League Red Book were published by their respective leagues, and were a pre-internet treasure trove of baseball information, both for the upcoming season and baseball history.

Anyway, some dude (Bill Schroeder, baseball historian and researcher) selected his ALL-TIME NATIONAL LEAGUE TEAM. Remember, this is 1977.

C-Gabby Hartnett
1b-Bill Terry
2b-Rogers Hornsby
SS-Honus Wagner
3b-Pie Traynor
LF-Stan Musial
CF-Willie Mays
RF-Hank Aaron
SP-Pete Alexander and Christy Mathewson

Would you make any changes to Schroeder's work as he intended (through 1977)?

What would YOUR NL All-Time team look like in 2012?

All Time NL Team - 2012

c- Bench
1b- Pujols
2b - Morgan
3b - Schmidt
ss - Wagner
lf - Bonds
cf - Mays
rf - Aaron

I would make no chsngers to Shroeder's 1977 choices znd, 1n 2012, I'd use Bench at catcher and Schmidt at 3b. No other changes.

Just Bench and Schmitt . Maybe argue for someone other than Terry at first even in 77 I might have gone with Banks at first or now put Musiel at first and Bonds in left.

For 2012, I personally think that Pujols had enough great NL seasons to be the 1b. Agree with Bench & Schmidt.

Here's my 1977 all NL team. Note that I've switched Musial to 1B to open up LF for another player. New players (Ed Mathews and Mel Ott) are in bold.

C-Gabby Hartnett
1b-Stan Musial
2b-Rogers Hornsby
SS-Honus Wagner
3b-Ed Mathews
LF-Mel Ott
CF-Willie Mays
RF-Hank Aaron
SP-Pete Alexander and Christy Mathewson

Why these changes? Well, first of all, I take serious issue with Schroeder's 1977 choice at 3B. Let's think of it in terms of WAR.

Pie Traynor's WAR: 33.8. Now let's look at some compeditors, all of whom had retired by 1977:

Eddie Mathews's WAR: 91.9
Ron Santo: 66.6
Ken Boyer: 58.7
Darrell Evans: 55.1 (admitted not all at 3B or in NL, but mostly)
Stan Hack: 50.7
Bob Elliott: 47.6
Heinie Groh: 46.3
John McGraw: 44.1
Larry Gardner: 43.8

Well, I'll stop there....Maybe someone might not accept the validity of WAR, and I guess one could make an argument that Pie was better than Larry Gardner or John McGraw or Heinie Groh--his contemporaries certainly saw him that way, and maybe they saw something our stats can't see. Personally, I think Santo and Boyer were more valuable players than Traynor. Both were excellent fielders and much better hitters. Some, however, might disagree.

But I don't understand how a credible argument can be made placing Traynor ahead of Eddie Mathews. Mathews career OPS + was 143 while Traynor's was 107. Mathews was a good defensive 3B. Traynor was reputedly a great one. But fielding at 3B can't possibly matter enough to make Traynor even remotely competitive to Mathews.

At firstbase, we have Bill Terry (WAR 52.1) vs. Cap Anson (91.1), Dan Brouthers (76.9), and Johnny Mize (67.98). This is tricky because while Anson and Brouthers are well ahead of Terry in WAR, both were pre-1900 players and I think there's some reason to be skeptical of the relative value of early era. Now, I'd take Mize over Terry in a heartbeat, but I'm inclined to cut this Gordian Knot and in the process create much better team by moving Musial to 1B (where he played more games than LF) and putting Mel Ott in LF. Ott's WAR is 104, which is well ahead of all the other guys under discussion. Ott played only a little LF, but it's clearly a position he could handle.

If there are objections to Ott in LF, then I would put Musial back in LF and Mize or Anson at 1B.

[quote="Outta Leftfield"]Here's my 1977 all NL team. Note that I've switched Musial to 1B to open up LF for another player. New players (Ed Mathews and Mel Ott) are in bold.

C-Gabby Hartnett
1b-Stan Musial
2b-Rogers Hornsby
SS-Honus Wagner
3b-Ed Mathews
LF-Mel Ott
CF-Willie Mays
RF-Hank Aaron
SP-Pete Alexander and Christy Mathewson

I absolutely agree with "Outa leftfield"but we need a left handed pitcher! How about Sandy Koufax and Warren Spahn to round out a 4 man rotation? I,ll take on any one wi this group!

gfg001 wrote:
I absolutely agree with "Outa leftfield"but we need a left handed pitcher! How about Sandy Koufax and Warren Spahn to round out a 4 man rotation? I,ll take on any one wi this group!

I'm with you on the pitching.... But what about an American League team as of 1977? Here's how I see it, adding a DH, since the DH had come in a few years before 1977 in the AL, and it allows me to include Teddy Ballgame. How does this look?

C-Yogi Berra
1b-Lou Gehrig
2b-Eddie Collins
3b-Home Run Baker
SS-Luke Appling
LF-Babe Ruth
CF-Tris Speaker
RF-Ty Cobb
DH-Ted Williams
SP-Walter Johnson, Lefty Grove, Eddie Plank, Bob Feller

Random observations: It seems amazing that Mantle doesn't make the team, but I can't seem him beating out any of the top OFs. Ruth played almost as much LF as RF (because he generally played LF on the road). Most of the great AL SS came after 1977 (A-Rod, Ripken, Yount, Trammel, Jeter, etc). Appling would have tough going against those guys. Feller missed almost 4 years to WW2. Otherwise, he would have won well over 300 games. Cy Young ought to be on one of these teams, but his career was split between AL & NL, so he doesn't have quite enough to make either team.

I wouldn't mind trying to win with this team vs the NL. It would be a great battle. Any thoughts on changes?

I think you could make a case for Dickey (or even Cochrane) at catcher over Berra, and Cronin over Appling at short. But I'd take Foxx over Baker 10 times out of 10 at third. Otherwise, the team looks fine.

No real arguments ,I agree tough leaving off Mantle. Thought about Ruth ,Mantle , Cobb left to right and Ruth,Speaker,Mantle left to right also.(thank goodness for the dh slot). Also catcher to me is a toss up of Berra, Dickey and Cochrane. Only option at third might be Foxx,but I prefer Baker.Finally Nap Lajoie, could he edge out Collins?

Used to be a site that let you make " dream teams" and actually challenge people or the computer,even make two dream teams and stage a personal all star game....would be cool if that were possible on strat.....dream on huh?

Oops looks like we were typing at the same time Bontom