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In honor of nevdully's

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:34 am
by supertyphoon
I saw this and couldn't help thinking about the guy with more ATG teams than any of us, and left a few months ago.

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles ... an-finally

Re: In honor of nevdully's

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 10:46 am
by Salty
nice article-

definitely miss Nev, but completely understand his reasons for not playing anymore.

Re: In honor of nevdully's

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 12:45 pm
by bontomn
I miss him as well, particularly his well-thought-out comments on the boards. Just wish I'd had a chance to interview him and do a profile on him before he left. We never could quite work out a convenient time. Hope he's happy and doing well.

Re: In honor of nevdully's

PostPosted: Sat Mar 18, 2017 8:26 pm
by Hack Wilson
Geez, why did Nevdully quit? I didn't see a post from him on this. A dark day in the Strat universe.

Re: In honor of nevdully's

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 10:28 am
by scorehouse
one reason was his theory of "normalization". which means that HAL will try to bring exceptional teams back to the pack. example your team starts the season 21-3, kicking everyones ass, then inexplicably 4-12 to bring em back to the pack. i never bought into this but this exact scenario just happened to my team in the new 2016 season game! i have more of a complaint about unbalanced dice rolls

Re: In honor of nevdully's

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 11:00 am
by Salty
Hack Wilson wrote:Geez, why did Nevdully quit? I didn't see a post from him on this. A dark day in the Strat universe.



I believe there were multiple reasons for this, but think the non personal pertinent ones involved how the game
was continuing to be handled; meaning no communication, no responsiveness to the community, no talk of game improvements other than adding a few cards, the lack of transparency with how the engine actually works.

Re: In honor of nevdully's

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:40 pm
by Whoopycat
The problem is proving your 21-3 team is so much better than everyone else's that it really should win 130 games. ;)

With all due respect to Nev, I completely disagreed with him on his various complaints. If you look at all of the things Bernie/TSN/John/SOM have added over the years since ATG1, there have been a staggering number of improvements. You don't need me to list them to know what they are, but to say SOM has been unresponsive is a bit unfounded.

Normalization in ATG1 was obvious and easily proven. There was no reason based on dice probabilities that Ruth or Mays should not hit 70-80+ home runs playing in Fenway 67 against weak pitching. And yet they didn't.

To extrapolate that to "my team was 21-3 and now I'm only 6 games above .500" is completely different. Pythagorus say in order to win 80% of your games, you basically need to average double the runs of your opponent per game. Read that again: average double the runs! Do you know how freaking hard that is to do in a league where everyone operates under the same salary cap? That means if you win a game 6-4, you need to win the next game 10-0 to keep that pace in order to cover the expected occasional losses. Looking at the ATG record books, the team at the top of the list with 116 wins had a whopping run diff of about +330, and they were outscoring opponents by roughly a 6-4 margin, and Pythagorus says they won about 3 more games than they should've.

Bottom line, there was no way to prove "team win" normalization. Just because you are out-managing your opponents and winning a lot of close games (which Nev was very good at), does not mean current success equals future success.

Nev's other big complaint was the so-called "black box" features of the game such as pitcher fatigue and the various game settings such as home field advantage. He wanted 100% transparency of game results. All I can say there is I disagree with his viewpoint. SOM online is a baseball simulation, not a simulation of two people sitting across from each other rolling dice. With that said, this game has a tremendous amount of transparency. If you've played the computer version, you know that we get to see probably 98% of the game results with complete transparency. The black box features account for the rest, and it was this other 2% that Nev couldn't get past. In my experience playing the computer version, these features account for AT MOST one game outcome per team per season.

I realize Nev isn't here to defend himself, but he's welcome to return anytime and shout me down. :D

Re: In honor of nevdully's

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 1:59 pm
by Salty
To say that there have been improvements and responsiveness because the game is not the same as it was 16 years ago is a massive red herring.

Also, you are incorrect in how you are characterizing Nev's arguments in just a general sense.

Re: In honor of nevdully's

PostPosted: Sun Mar 19, 2017 6:10 pm
by Whoopycat
You're misusing the term red herring, but when I see things like much improved bullpen management, dice rolls on game summaries, a massive card card set that is still being added to, live drafts, multiple cards per player, split stats, sortable league stats, clutch and ballpark effect results, defensive x-roll results, injury tracking, player card watching, game replays, improved free agent searching, reduced system downtime and everything else that I can't think of off the top of my head, then yes, I feel comfortable disagreeing with the take that SOM is unresponsive to the community.

Also, it was you and others characterizing Nev's grievances as normalized regression to the mean, responsiveness and transparency. I was just giving my opinion on each of those matters.

Re: In honor of nevdully's

PostPosted: Tue Mar 21, 2017 1:45 pm
by Salty
actually guessing you are just not understanding--

when you are suggesting that those complaining are not taking into consideration all of the game improvements in context of a 16 year period of time-- and then to say that is 'responsiveness' and a 'staggering number' -- you must be easily staggered I guess because THAT is the massive red herring.

The mischaracterization you are making is with the statistic you are attempting to use to say this is what he thought.