Matt Cain and the Reverse Lineup

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chasenally

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Matt Cain and the Reverse Lineup

PostMon Jan 07, 2013 11:19 pm

I drafted Matt Cain and then came the reverse lineup. The guy is (was just dropped him to the minor leagues in my keeper league) 1-8 in 11 games. 79IP 5.01ERA 1.38WHIP. His only win was a complete game shutout. I play at Gr Am Ballpark but my team is 26-16. He just got beat by Trevor Cahill 5-3 and down he goes.

My question is for everyone that has him. Is this reverse lineup killing him? I would load up on RH hitters against him also but without the RL you would get killed by other pitchers.
The msaegse is waht mttares msot!
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gbrookes

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Re: Matt Cain and the Reverse Lineup

PostTue Jan 08, 2013 1:51 am

My thoughts:

-One of the main things I do in the preseason - especially in a 12 team league where you play each of your 3 divisional rivals 24 times - is I see what my divisional rivals' lineups (and rosters) look like. If I'm in a division where each team has 6 guys that can hit Right EFFECTIVELY against Matt Cain (or any other extremely L balanced RHP), then I will probably exchange him for a heavily R balanced RHP. Managers tend to like reverse balance pitchers, so there are usually some good R balanced starting pitchers hanging around still in the preseason.

-I put the word "effectively" in caps in the previous thought, above. What I mean is that a poor hitting RHB - especially a W power RHB - need not be feared. So just because someone can start Jason Donald against Matt Cain doesn't mean that Cain will be ineffective. I tend not to worry about that kind of same-handed batter. The disadvantage for Cain is usually offset to a large degree by the drop in effectiveness from whoever would have been the starting batter in the normal lineup (left or switch hitter).

-If the opponent's lineup that's loaded with RHB is NOT in your division, you only play them 12 times - maybe only 9 times. Unless the whole league is avoiding Lefties and Switch hitters, you will get your share of lefties and switch hitters against other opponents.

- Even with * SP's like Cain, I will usually try to have at least a S/R pitcher who is good enough to start in a 5th starting spot when I need it. In this case, it would likely be a R balanced starting pitcher - maybe like Litsch. Then, I can just drop Cain down a game in the rotation if I need to, to face a team with more lefties or switch hitters. In my mind, the lost start is often worth getting the better match up. I try to plan my starting pitchers out at least 3 or 4 series in advance, for this reason. Of course, this tends to be less effective if 2 or 3 of your division rivals have lots of RHB - see my first bullet point.

-I've been using reverse balance lineups for years. The way you did it before (and you can still do it this way) is to leave your lineup blank. Then HAL will choose your lineup for each game. HAL takes into account the balance of the opposing starting pitcher when he chooses your lineup. The problem with using the "blank lineup" or "Who's on first?" technique is that HAL will often make choices that you don't agree with (especially at catcher) or that HAL will choose an outlandish batting order - sometimes with your cleanup hitter leading off. (Maybe HAL knows something we don't, but not many players would do this). BTW, you can also do a partially blank lineup, with the empty batting order slots at the bottom. But what the new reverse lineup feature allows you to do is to customize your reverse balance lineup, and thus avoid the disadvantages with the blank lineup technique. Anyway, the point is, this anti-Cain strategy of a reverse balance lineup isn't entirely new. I know quite a few managers have been using blank lineups for quite a while now.

EDIT -
I reread your post, and I noticed belatedly that you are in a keeper league, so the preseason shuffle isn't really a solution obviously. But many keeper leagues are 24 team leagues. In such leagues, you only play your divisional rivals 12 times, and there are 5 of them (not 3). So, you are less likely to have 5 divisional rivals with a common pattern of heavy weighting to RHB lineups. Then, you could use a less rigid pitching rotation to try to get better game matchups for Cain.
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chasenally

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Re: Matt Cain and the Reverse Lineup

PostTue Jan 08, 2013 2:58 am

I always let HAL start my season. He almost always puts my cleanup hitter first, high OBP is my guess. This year I have Bautista and Cabrera and he put them 1st and 2nd in the line up. I have also done that and it works most of the time.

With Cain it would be best to go with the RL. This just gets it done without having to let HAL do the work during the other 2 games. My guess is that with the RL Cain isn't worth the price at all with this new setting. I don't mind the setting just wonder how worthless Cain is for those that are using him with this new setting.

Next year his splits are much better and I am looking foward to him being my Ace in this game. Right now he is about as good as a $2MIL starter for me. I take this game like any sport I coach, things change all the time and I took a hit here.


Mike
The msaegse is waht mttares msot!
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gbrookes

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Re: Matt Cain and the Reverse Lineup

PostTue Jan 08, 2013 11:32 am

Yep. I'm just skeptical that it should be horribly bad, unless you get stuck in a division with lots of RHB lineups. On the other hand, I have really come to appreciate that luck plays a big role in individual player performances in strat. The luck tends to even out after a while, or sometimes over a couple of seasons. One keeper league I am in is interesting that way, in that they play 2 seasons. This year we actually played 3 seasons.

Agree with your comments!
:)
Geoff
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Valen

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Re: Matt Cain and the Reverse Lineup

PostTue Jan 08, 2013 12:00 pm

Cain is 6L. But I do not worry much about the balance number. That is artificially generated by some secret formula Strat made up. I look at the card. And when I look at the Cain card against RH batters it does not look that bad.

There is only a 1 in 20 chance of a HR at 5-9 and no #s. so he is not going to give up HRs in any park except off the hitter card. And if the roll is on the hitter card who your pitcher is or his balance rating or whatever it does not matter. He is no mor elikely to give up a walk against RH hitter than a LH hitter. Chances of a hit go up on rolls of 4-9, 5-9, and 5-2. That is not that much difference. I doubt very many teams are going to be able to sufficiently sub lineups to take advantage of that. Now if it was someone like Anibal Sanchez who adds 4 #s then in certain ballparks I might worry about what a reverse lineup could do to me. But with Cain I am betting the tradeoffs from making a change be against your opponent. Remember he is either having to waste money on good replacement or subbing in an inferior player. More likely the only change being made though is adjust the batting order. I like that if I am managing against a reverse pitcher but the impact/gain is going to be small. If the dropoff between Cain and his replacement is too big your tradeoff to avoid the reverse lineup could be greater than your opponent's tradeoff in having it. In that case you lose by giving dropping Cain.

Regarding your poor results I would look closer at the stats breakdown. Did he have a lot of bad luck with high percentage of rolls on batter cards? If so his replacement may be no better. And his performance could improve with better luck as those results tend back toward 50%.
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geekor

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Re: Matt Cain and the Reverse Lineup

PostTue Jan 08, 2013 12:47 pm

Cain was consistently putting up mediocre numbers in the leagues I was in BEFORE the reverse lineups came out. I'm not sure that they are the reason for his bad numbers.
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Rant

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Re: Matt Cain and the Reverse Lineup

PostTue Jan 08, 2013 5:48 pm

He was alright for me in the one keeper league I had him in AT&T:

Season One: 20-15 with a 3.40 ERA 1.23 WHIP (team was 76-86)
Season Two: 15-20 with a 4.02 ERA 1.37 WHIP (team was 77-85)

Both were before reverse lineup. He was good at home and 4.40+ ERAs away both seasons.
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The Biomechanical Man

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Re: Matt Cain and the Reverse Lineup

PostTue Jan 08, 2013 8:35 pm

chasenally wrote:I drafted Matt Cain and then came the reverse lineup. The guy is (was just dropped him to the minor leagues in my keeper league) 1-8 in 11 games. 79IP 5.01ERA 1.38WHIP. His only win was a complete game shutout. I play at Gr Am Ballpark but my team is 26-16. He just got beat by Trevor Cahill 5-3 and down he goes.

My question is for everyone that has him. Is this reverse lineup killing him? I would load up on RH hitters against him also but without the RL you would get killed by other pitchers.


Chase,
What are the lefty/righty splits of number of batters faced by Cain and by other RH starters who are/were on your current team?
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chasenally

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Re: Matt Cain and the Reverse Lineup

PostTue Jan 08, 2013 8:41 pm

I have to go to a Coaches meeting soon. When I get home I will look them over and let you know.
The msaegse is waht mttares msot!
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edub1969

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Re: Matt Cain and the Reverse Lineup

PostTue Jan 22, 2013 10:45 am

Pretty good for me all 3 times I had him:

Cain, Matt 19 13 0 0 299.0 262 128 115 87 225 35 +2 0 3 6NR 3.46 1.17
(Comerica Park) 95 Wins, Champs and had Kipnis at 2B and J. Peralta at SS Full Time

Cain, Matt 20 19 0 0 318.0 297 136 127 98 239 22 +2 0 3 6NR 3.59 1.24
(Dodger Stadium) 85 Wins, Lost in Semi's

Cain, Matt 22 15 0 0 335.2 285 134 122 114 244 24 +2 0 3 6NR 3.27 1.19
(Citi Field) 86 Wins, but didn't make playoffs
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