Does a real life manager do this?

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visick

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Does a real life manager do this?

PostTue May 21, 2013 10:41 am

Code: Select all
TOP OF INNING 9
 SUBSTITUTION at P: Carlos Marmol (role: Closer)
0  T.Plouffe 4-7 Walk b-1   F9
 SUBSTITUTION at PR: Nyjer Morgan
   Stolen Base 1-2   F9
0 2  A.Beltre 1-5 Double (CF) 2-H b-2   F9
0 2  J.Heyward 4-7 Walk b-1   F9
0 12  A.Hill  Wild Pitch 2-3 1-2   F9
0 23  A.Hill 4-2 Strike Out b-0   F9
1 23  I.Desmond 2-3 Single (LF) 3-H 2-o b-2  bpSI 1-11 F9
2 2  J.Willingham  Int Walk b-1   F9
2 12  J.Morneau 1-8 Fly Out (RF) b-0   F9


Intentionally walk a righty, top of the ninth, to get to a lefty for a force play?

IDK...
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Davesodu

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Re: Does a real life manager do this?

PostTue May 21, 2013 5:55 pm

It was Marmol. Probably not an intentional walk but the pitches were so far off the plate it just looked that way.

I can't recall this happening in real life but I can see it if Willingham is 8-17 career vs. Marmol while Morneau is 3-15 career. Also depends on the score - is Morneau is tying run or is Desmond who is already on 2nd so Willingham doesn't matter.
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visick

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Re: Does a real life manager do this?

PostTue May 21, 2013 6:06 pm

"I can't recall this happening in real life but I can see it if Willingham is 8-17 career vs. Marmol while Morneau is 3-15 career. Also depends on the score - is Morneau is tying run or is Desmond who is already on 2nd so Willingham doesn't matter."


Ummm, No offense...but this means nothing in Strat.

I'm down 5-4 at this point, top of the ninth. Runners @ 2nd & 3rd.
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visick

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Re: Does a real life manager do this?

PostTue May 21, 2013 6:08 pm

I sent this same thing to Strat and their reply...
"Comparing the two hitters, Marmol is practically even vs both lefty and righty hitters. Although he allows more power to LHP, he allows less on-base to them. Also, Willingham's card has better numbers against RHP then Morneau does. Then take in the clutch effect and Willingham has a significant advantage over Morneau. So even though Morneau is a LHB and Willingham is a RHB, the computer manager thought Marmol had a better chance to retire Morneau."


My reply to them was...

Guys,
I don't know where you are getting your #'s from but...

VS. RH's:
Willingham: 19.5 hit chances/ 41.4 OB chances/ 39.3 TB chances. 4 HR chances/ Maxed out BPHR's/ -4 clutch
Morneau: 25.8 hit chances/ 38.8 OB chances / 48.9 TB chances . 5.2 HR chances/ Maxed Out BPHR's/ -12 clutch

Where is Willingham better vs. RH's? With his OB? Less negative clutch?

I don't know if ANY MLB manager will intentionally walk a righty bat with a righty closer to get to a lefty.

Honestly, in my opinion, this is not very realistic.

I started playing this game, face to face, in the early 70's. I'm no rookie at this.
I would possibly buy your logic if Willingham WAS significantly better than Morneau.
#'s don't lie.
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visick

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Re: Does a real life manager do this?

PostTue May 21, 2013 6:11 pm

Show of hands here please...

Does anybody agree with Strat's explanation?
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Davesodu

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Re: Does a real life manager do this?

PostTue May 21, 2013 6:18 pm

visick wrote:Ummm, No offense...but this means nothing in Strat.

I'm down 5-4 at this point, top of the ninth. Runners @ 2nd & 3rd.


You were asking if it happened in real life and I was thinking real life MLB, not real life manager in a Strat game.

Without looking at Marmol's card and given the numbers you laid out it looks like Morneau has the worse clutch and slightly worse on base but everything else favors him. The on base doesn't matter a whole lot as first is open so I would pitch to Willingham and if I walk him change pitchers to a more favorable match up with Morneau.
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Valen

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Re: Does a real life manager do this?

PostTue May 21, 2013 7:01 pm

Need a link to the game. Might depend on the score, etc.
I have read many times posts by many managers who indicate HAL pays a lot of attention to positive and negative clutch with respect to intentional walks.
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visick

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Re: Does a real life manager do this?

PostTue May 21, 2013 7:23 pm

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gbrookes

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Re: Does a real life manager do this?

PostWed May 22, 2013 2:39 pm

Visick, I agree with you, based on the cards and probabilities in strat. (In real life Marmol would likely pitch to Willingham also). Here is my summary of the probabilities (as a decimal) for each of the next 3 batters, including estimates of the fielding chart readings on Marmol's card, ballpark effects (Kaufman) and after adjusting for clutch hitting (or lack thereof):

"WES*" - means a walk, HBP, one base error or infield single limited to one base (i.e. on the X chart)

"HE**" - means a hit or an error that will score the runner from second. In this case, I have included .75 times batting card singles that are not ** singles, as an estimate of the singles that Desmond would score on from second base. With a one run lead and likely a .75 chance (he's 1-15, minus 2 for the good arms in LF and RF, plus 2 for running with 2 outs), 75% of singles should score Desmond, and you would likely want to send the runner home from second base, in order to build the lead from a one run lead to a 2 run lead.

"Out" - includes straight-forward outs, as well as the residual 25% of singles where the runner goes but gets thrown out.

Willingham - WES* - .27 HE** - .11 Out - .62 (HE** includes .03 HR)
Morneau - WES* - .17 HE** - .12 Out - .71 (HE** includes .04 HR)
Nieves - WES* - .17 HE** - .14 Out .69 (HE** includes .00 HR -negligible)

I started to calculate the probabilities with an intentional walk to Willingham, and without an intentional walk, but I stopped, because the answer is obvious.

Morneau has slightly more chances to hit the runner home, and he has slightly more chances to hit a home run, compared to Willingham. This is even after adjusting for the negative clutch on Morneau. In terms of the breakdown on the cards, Willingham is actually very slightly better than Morneau, in terms of hitting the runner home (after removing hits that are outs in clutch situations), but this advantage for Willingham is more than offset by the slightly larger number of hits and homeruns that Marmol gives up to left handed hitters (i.e. Morneau).

In fact, Willingham's main superiority to Morneau, ironically, is in terms of his ability to draw walks, and Marmol's greater likelihood to issue walks to a right handed batter. But you would never issue an intentional walk to avoid a walk!!!

By issuing an intentional walk, you run the further risk of issuing yet another walk or SI* or error when facing Morneau (odds are .17). In that case, the odds of scoring the runner with Nieves batting shoot up to .31, as any safe play will score the runner with the bases loaded!

This is overkill, of course. The immediate and clear answer is that Willingham has less chance to hit the runner home than Morneau. This arises primarily due to the fewer hits yielded to left handed hitters on Marmol's card (the traditional baseball expectation with a right handed pitcher - in this case confirmed by Marmol's card). Furthemore the liklihood of Morneau hitting a home run (to really put the game away) is slightly greater than the risk of Willingham hitting a homerun. And, if you walk Willingham, the runs scored on a HR by Morneau are higher than a HR hit by Willingham.

Case closed!

There are a few glitchy things in online strat, and this is definitely one of them. I am generally a fan of issuing an intentional walk where the baseball logic and probabilities dicatate it. However, I have (as of about a week ago) changed my team strategy settings for intentional walks to "very conservative", to bring the overall rate of intentional walks down to a level where I feel like it can be managed on a pitcher by pitcher basis. For pitchers like Marmol, who issue a lot of walks anyway, I am continuing to set the pitcher preferences to "IBB less".

This needs to be on the "fix it" list. There is a thread for that. I haven't checked to see if the IBB tendencies are on that list, but I'll be posting a link to this thread on that board. I invite others to post their thoughts and experiences as well, for data for Strat to review for the fix.
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visick

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Re: Does a real life manager do this?

PostWed May 22, 2013 2:55 pm

Case closed!

Thanks...

My interaction w/ Strat cont...

Me:
Guys,
I don't know where you are getting your #'s from but...

VS. RH's:
Willingham: 19.5 hit chances/ 41.4 OB chances/ 39.3 TB chances. 4 HR chances/ Maxed out BPHR's/ -4 clutch
Morneau: 25.8 hit chances/ 38.8 OB chances / 48.9 TB chances . 5.2 HR chances/ Maxed Out BPHR's/ -12 clutch

Where is Willingham better vs. RH's? With his OB? Less negative clutch?

I don't know if ANY MLB manager will intentionally walk a righty bat with a righty closer to get to a lefty.

Honestly, in my opinion, this is not very realistic.

I started playing this game, face to face, in the early 70's. I'm no rookie at this.
I would possibly buy your logic if Willingham WAS significantly better than Morneau.
#'s don't lie.
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